1 bit DAC launched by TOPPING

[Digital_Thor]

If we can finally have a DAC with 10 band Peq at an affordable price it would finally be real progress

Indeed interesting when these things start to become cheaper and further developed
I've had this Groundsound DCN28 for more than 10 years now. It has 8 channels out, DAC, Digitally controlled analog volume, remote trigger, lot's of PEQ's on both inputs and outputs and little nice features to run a full set of active speakers with subwoofers.
Yes, it costed me around 4.000 Euro back then, but everything was kinda solved in one go. No need to look at new DAC's and all sorts of this and that gimmicks.
Tested it in so many systems, with everything from horns and any imaginable combinations.... just works like intended with no apparent sonic issue.
So, it can surely be done... we just have to follow the development, since this product is no longer being made. I'm keeping mine, nothing really challenged it so far, since several technologies are already pretty much solved to this date... and years ago

It's of course missing FIR and all these streaming services... but those are easily added external if you really care.

 

[solderdude]

It's very interesting that it's not immediately noticeable, because the midrange is masquerading, with very good bass and treble reproduction and an overly perfect spatiality that reminds me too much of an early artificial 3D audio simulation. So it's definitely a problem with the software or hardware design. The D90 Discrete has a completely different sound setup, even though it has practically the same circuit design. We need a very in-depth measurement study with Amir.

We can start by making some recordings using actual music that will be revealing.
Or mixing L and R signal (make it mono) and see if the voices disappear ?
When they do there is a polarity flip somewhere.

It would be weird if this would be a phase thing for mids only.
Of course, perhaps a design error where the balanced out has pin 2 and 3 mixed up on one channel or when RCA out one channel is from + signal and the other one from - signal.

Perhaps have a look with a simple scope (or sound card) using a 1kHz tone ?

 

[Kiko1974]

If the Topping D90 Discreet is a true 1 bit D/A Converter, does this mean It can convert DSD without any tampering as opposed to the D90 PRO AK4191+AK4499 EX that remodulates DSD to 7 bit (if I'm not mistaken) Delta/Sigma?
I own the 4900 PRO, and despite being unable to update its firmware, the sound of It choosing Fixed Level, DSD unprocessed (or something like this), is great for the price.
Do you think that the Topping D90 Discreet sounds better than the SMSL D400 PRO?

 

[bogi]

Do you think that the Topping D90 Discreet sounds better than the SMSL D400 PRO?

All DACs with so great SINAD sound the same on this forum.

 

[staticV3]

All DACs with so great SINAD sound the same on this forum.

As opposed to other forums, where the veils are lifted and the true performance is revealed

 

[bogi]

If the Topping D90 Discreet is a true 1 bit D/A Converter, does this mean It can convert DSD without any tampering as opposed to the D90 PRO AK4191+AK4499 EX that remodulates DSD to 7 bit (if I'm not mistaken) Delta/Sigma?

No, it is not guaranteed that internally 1bit converter supports direct DSD path. In principle 1bit converter need not support DSD input signal. Or it can remodulate it after optional volume control - that does not mean direct DSD path.

AK4191EQ+AK4499 EX is capable to provide direct DSD path at DSD128 and DSD256 rates but AFAIK only Gustard happened to implement it correctly in A26 and Audalytic AH90 via unofficial firmware. Others may advertise direct DSD path but it most probably will not work correctly because of buggy chip implementation and documentation issues.

Do you think that the Topping D90 Discreet sounds better than the SMSL D400 PRO?

On this forum all DACs with so great SINAD sound the same. On other forums they may sound differently.

 

[MBO]

We can start by making some recordings using actual music that will be revealing.
Or mixing L and R signal (make it mono) and see if the voices disappear ?
When they do there is a polarity flip somewhere.

It would be weird if this would be a phase thing for mids only.
Of course, perhaps a design error where the balanced out has pin 2 and 3 mixed up on one channel or when RCA out one channel is from + signal and the other one from - signal.

Perhaps have a look with a simple scope (or sound card) using a 1kHz tone ?

I checked the D900 via Test Signal CD, mono signals per channel, summed signal, etc.. everything is fine. When I connected via USB, I almost destroyed my speakers, because the volume was about 10-15 dB higher, and the sound picture became fundamentally different compared to the I2S input, it became more diffuse and wide, in short, a raw product.

 

[solderdude]

seems like it is in dire need for updates.

 

[MBO]

If the Topping D90 Discreet is a true 1 bit D/A Converter, does this mean It can convert DSD without any tampering as opposed to the D90 PRO AK4191+AK4499 EX that remodulates DSD to 7 bit (if I'm not mistaken) Delta/Sigma?
I own the 4900 PRO, and despite being unable to update its firmware, the sound of It choosing Fixed Level, DSD unprocessed (or something like this), is great for the price.
Do you think that the Topping D90 Discreet sounds better than the SMSL D400 PRO?

If the Topping D90 Discreet is a true 1 bit D/A Converter, does this mean It can convert DSD without any tampering as opposed to the D90 PRO AK4191+AK4499 EX that remodulates DSD to 7 bit (if I'm not mistaken) Delta/Sigma?
I own the 4900 PRO, and despite being unable to update its firmware, the sound of It choosing Fixed Level, DSD unprocessed (or something like this), is great for the price.
Do you think that the Topping D90 Discreet sounds better than the SMSL D400 PRO?

I can say that in my experience the D90III Discrete is by far the best DAC from Topping

 

[Lupin]

I can say that in my experience the D90III Discrete is by far the best DAC from Topping

Based on what exactly?

 

[mocenigo]

Then please explain from an engineering perspective how there can be a difference in sound if they measure identical?

Do they? I am not sure I have seen D900 measurements, except those few from the manufacturer.

 

[Svend P]

Do they? I am not sure I have seen D900 measurements, except those few from the manufacturer.

It shouldn't be necessary to come with the usual disclaimers for a member who has been here 7 years? But here goes: They all measure better than what humans can hear

 

[mocenigo]

It shouldn't be necessary to come with the usual disclaimers for a member who has been here 7 years? But here goes: They all measure better than what humans can hear

Well, it would still be interesting.
For instance, we have a report of a D900 (purchased by @MBO) with foggy sound — if a review exemplar measures perfectly maybe @MBO got a defective unit.
If there is a problem with the review unit, then maybe there is a problem with mass production.
Or maybe everything is between @MBO's ears. However, independent measurements can help get closer to the truth.

 

[mocenigo]

It shouldn't be necessary to come with the usual disclaimers for a member who has been here 7 years? But here goes: They all measure better than what humans can hear

Well, it would still be interesting.
For instance, we have a report of a D900 with foggy sound — if a review exemplar measures perfectly maybe one purchased got a defective unit.
If there is a problem with the review unit, then maybe there is a problem with mass production.
Or maybe everything is between the ears.

 

[MBO]

Hello, problems can happen anywhere, but when I write something like this, I verify it first. I also bought a Gustard X26III at the same time, and it sounds absolutely clear and lifelike in the mid-frequency range. Someone already reported that their D900 sounds a bit better after the last update; it's possible that Topping changed something. Unfortunately, I returned my D900 because the X26III was a bit better in my opinion.

 

[Kevinc35]

Assuming they get the firmware fixed it certainly is a much more handsome piece than my D90 III Sabre (which I like very much and where they did eventually fix the firmware to my satisfaction) so something I would bear in mind as a replacement in the event the D90 died and if it were the right price. I therefore compared the available measurements for the D900 and D90 III Sabre (using Topping's own charts to be like for like). Not surprisingly my D90 III Sabre appears to measure slightly better for almost everything, but the multitone suggests the D900 is quite a bit cleaner in the bass, possibly at the expense of being slightly less clean everywhere else.

D90 III Sabre:

D900:

Any thoughts?

 

[solderdude]

Both -115dB at 100Hz (and certainly below) and -145dB at 100Hz is equally inaudible.
But sure ... the D900 measures better and someone with measurement plot OCD would certainly pick the the D900 over the D90-III while listening to music with peak SPL of 110dB.

 

[bigpilot]

It’s like the Marantz SA-10 where it doesn’t use a single chip IC but converts everything to DSD (1-bit) and implements an ultrasonic filter…

I was planning to use the same AK4137 for my DAC.

 

[welwynnick]

John E. Johnson Jr has just published a very lengthy review of the D900 on Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity.
It's a mixture of subjective and objective, and it's as positive as you might expect it to be.
I suspect that the test results aren't as good as Amir or L7/Fox or SoundStage HiFi or GoldenSound might achieve, but there were no bad surprises.
However he really goes to town on explaining the PSRM technology that Topping use (which most people shy away from).
He also goes into great detail about some of the tests that he performs. It's a good read.

Topping D900 DAC Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Topping is a China-based DAC and Headphone Amplifier company that builds and sells direct (from China). Their products are minimalist in...

hometheaterhifi.com

 

[Roland68]

I was planning to use the same AK4137 for my DAC.

Is the AK4137 sample rate converter used anywhere in Marantz or Topping?