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理性派HiFi X5 Speaker Review

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 53 25.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 132 62.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 26 12.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    212

192kbps

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I don't mean to defend x5, but gfsg119 did say that x5 was not designed for cea2034a before it was released last June, and he did mention the problem of NFS before; I'm more curious about the test data of T12 now, and I hope someone can send it to amirm for measurement.


If, as he said in his video, the problem of NFS is enough to make its measurement worthless, then what is the significance of sending T12 for test?
 

Holmz

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So is there any clue where the resonance comes from?

Most likely it’s the driver basket.
(Of course if it was a ScanSpeak, then we could just see what its resonance is.)

The usual way to mitigate it is to hold the driver by the heavy motor end, and not the lighter end where the screws are at.


@amirm why are there no compression measurement on the initial post?
I like that there is the step function, but it would be nice to have all the reviews consistent with step function and compression.

But I appreciate that this is a bookshelf, so maybe there is a correlation with ookshelf speakers not having compression measurements?
 

ThomasXia

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is it worth spending this kind of energy on a speaker not available outside China...the review becomes, at best, a curiosity, but what is the practical value?
A little background information is provided here.

The designer (GFSG119) has been running a HiFi knowledge section on several Chinese social media platforms for many years. He has a large following and is dedicated to promoting a scientific perspective on audio products. He has translated many articles by Sean Olive and Floyd Toole to educate Chinese consumers about speaker product design and acoustic measurements. He shares a lot of experience with Harman's subjective evaluation testing methods. He has played a similar role to forums like ASR in popularizing HiFi technologies, and we cannot deny his contribution.

The problem is that, firstly, he often makes some mistakes in the details of his articles and videos, such as misinterpreting the original author's meaning or adding content that does not exist in the original text and is purely personal free play. When his readers point out these mistakes, he hardly corrects them but spends a lot of time arguing with the commenters. Secondly, when he started selling HiFi products, his words and actions were no longer consistent with what he claimed to do in the past when he was popularizing knowledge. He did it under the guise of science, just like his reaction to this review.

Given his influence on the social network and his background as a former Harman employee and considering that he even happened to have the opportunity to translate Sound Reproduction by Toole but failed temporarily, I personally think all the efforts by the audio science community should not be twisted by him and these things need to be explained to the public.

Below is his video talking about the translation of Sound Reproduction.

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“Dr. Floyd Toole has a book called "Sound Reproduction", which is a summary of his life's work. It explains most of the problems associated with the sound reproduction process from scientific experiments and theoretical conclusions. It also includes many contents about the construction of an ideal listening system, which was related with the work of my first project since I started working. This is also the basis for subjective tuning and evaluation, as found in the previous postings. For many of the things mentioned in the book, I have personal experience and physical practice. And I was the only acoustic engineer from China in charge of that project before. So at least I personally think no one in China knows this book better than me. In fact, I was given the opportunity to translate the third edition of this book and contacted Posts & Telecom Press in China and other related organizations. However, for various reasons, this matter has been put on hold, and it is not convenient to go into details here.”

【2020-09-17 关于HiFi的科学与艺术,观点与事实。声音的重现——Floyd Toole博士】
 
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新しい人

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If, as he said in his video, the problem of NFS is enough to make its measurement worthless, then what is the significance of sending T12 for test?
I certainly don't believe that the NFS measurements are worthless, in fact I chose to buy the Genelec 8361 based on the results of the Amirm test and I'm happy with it. I'm interested in the T12 because he says the X5 is not based on the CEA2034A, so I can personally accept that the X5 measurements are not good, but what about the T12?
 

192kbps

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I certainly don't believe that the NFS measurements are worthless, in fact I chose to buy the Genelec 8361 based on the results of the Amirm test and I'm happy with it. I'm interested in the T12 because he says the X5 is not based on the CEA2034A, so I can personally accept that the X5 measurements are not good, but what about the T12?
I'm just as curious as you are. Are you willing to pay part of the fee? It will be interesting to see the comparison with JBL 4349.
 

MZKM

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The designer released the frequency response curve based on the 0.5 meter distance measured in the anechoic chamber at 2:23 seconds.
View attachment 269831

Here it is in my standard view (as always, I only go down to 30Hz for formatting reasons)


Response.png


Here is +/-10 from Amir's data:
Response-2.png
 

192kbps

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闲聊桌面音箱的测试 - 鬼斧神工119的文章 - 知乎 https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/611898115
From the designer. Translation by a friend.

I’ve written about the CEA2034A standard for loudspeaker testing a while back. There are some limits as to where this standard can be used. Due to the variety of speakers and their intended usage, sometimes different test methods are more applicable.
Smart speakers, Bluetooth speakers and desktop speakers have more appropriate test methods, some of which comply with or originate from the IEEE 1329 standard.
v2-7f57eb0bd566578b8bfd7de56c2a1458_r.jpg

Put simply, the speaker is placed on a desk and tested at a predetermined height/angle. Of course, this is just one configuration. For some products, other factors, such as listener posture, will influence measurement configurations as well as design choices. For example, the difference in tweeter section between the first-gen HomePod and second-gen HomePod2, which I’ve analysed before.
In a similar manner, some speakers made for desktop use (In the general sense, including some Bluetooth speakers and smart speakers) have their own target responses. There is some in-depth research in the industry, but as it’s not been published yet, I cannot discuss specifics here. What can be said, however, is that there are differing evaluation standards, test weights, and target responses for speakers versus CEA2034A and other more “traditional” standards, meant for the evaluation of domestic speakers placed in a living room setting and at a distance from the listener.

Of course, many passive loudspeakers and active loudspeakers without a DSP preset for desktop scenarios cannot fully solve the problem of response variations from desktop reflections, but at least some of them are developed with reference to the aforementioned standard for desktop speakers, rather than CEA2034A, in their R&D process, and I did mention a few of these speakers in previous articles. This also applies to some soundbars with a desktop mode.
Besides, certain desktop speakers (again, in the general sense) have a different emphasis on aspects of their performance. Some loudspeakers are made for usage scenarios that place more emphasis on On-Axis performance (and Early Reflection and related Directivity, or course) of the speaker. One such scenario would be when the speaker is placed in a living room with their acoustic axis properly aligned towards the main listening position. Some will cite that horn loudspeakers could have On-Axis response variations due to diffraction around the edges of the horn, these variations can be considered insignificant If they only occur across a limited area. (Translator Note: probably meaning over limited bandwidth and angular intervals)


However, some usage scenarios dictate a shorter listening distance than usual, such is the case when listening is conducted in a desktop setting with the user sitting near the speaker. The distance between the listener’s head and the speaker itself is short enough that the listener’s head and ears can no longer be considered as a single point in the sound field. Suppose listening is conducted at 50~60cm away from the speakers, with the speaker and the head in an equilateral triangle. Even if the acoustic axis of the speaker points toward the middle of the listener’s head, the angular deviation between the two ears and the acoustic axis of the speaker would be 10~12 degrees. If the speaker points toward one of the two ears, the angular deviation for the other ear will be even greater. Therefore, an average of the speaker response across this angular interval is more suitable for some products designed with this scenario in mind.
Vertically, the difference in each user’s height and various tables’ and chairs’ heights also need to be taken into account. It should also be averaged over an interval, barring the use of an adjustable stand. (Translator Note: He’s basically talking about a Listening Window, but probably with a bit more vertical interval)
v2-4d975b3ac15035782de36c1205bb52d2_r.jpg


On top of all these, some speakers built for short-distance listening need to have their reflections assessed differently.

There are different test standards and methods of assessment for loudspeakers for different usage scenarios, such as professional audio and car audio. In the past, I followed the corresponding standard when evaluating these speakers designed for specific, alternative usage scenarios. I will talk about more of these “alternative” standards in the future
 
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amirm

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Smart speakers, Bluetooth speakers and desktop speakers have more appropriate test methods, some of which comply with or originate from the IEEE 1329 standard.
His comments are very strange. Both about this IEEE standard and CEA2034. IEEE 1329 simply standardize a measurement scheme. The former has no foundation of listening tests which then created CEA 2034. I don't care if a speaker is on a desk, suspended in air, or on a stand. It needs to have flat on-axis response due to precedence effect. That is the starting point for any speaker design. Studio monitors are routinely are put in desks as well. Our on-axis measurements of those combined with directivity have powerfully predicted their actual performance. Such is also the case for the speaker he is building.

I also don't see the relevance to smart speakers which have very limited response, often with array of drivers and such. He is building a traditional speaker, not a smart one.

Basically he is making up his own science here. Which is fine if he wants to run the listening tests to confirm what he is doing as proper. Hiding behind such things as IEEE 1329 is not going to help.
 

Digby

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@amirm Isn't this argument somewhat pointless, in that you are arguing with someone who doesn't speak good (any?) English, whose mother tongue is a language far removed from English, which is very easy to mis-translate/misunderstand in the back and forth between the two languages, and whose products are unavailable outside China. I refer back to my comment in post #200.

I feel like you are at risk of unwittingly becoming a middle man in some kind of disagreement between Chinese people, about a thing of little to no import to this forum.
 
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192kbps

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@amirm Isn't this argument somewhat pointless, in that you are arguing with someone who doesn't speak good (any?) English, whose mother tongue is a language far removed from English, which is very easy to mis-translate/misunderstand in the back and forth between the two languages, and whose products are unavailable outside China. I refer back to my comment in post #200.

I feel like you are at risk of unwittingly becoming a middle man in some kind of disagreement between Chinese people, about a thing of little to no import to this forum.
Taobao.com is a global shopping website that supports overseas mailing. As far as I know, many audio lovers outside China have bought things on this website. I just found a photo. The designer marked the price of the product in US dollars when the product was sold. If you know the influence of the designer on the Chinese Internet, you will be very surprised.
Of course, my friend and I are willing to take responsibility for any misunderstanding caused by translation.
Thank you for your reply. Let's stop all this.
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1980 RMB (USD 299 for overseas users)
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White 9499 RMB (USD 1499 for overseas users)
Black 9999 RMB (USD 1599 for overseas users)
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13999 RMB (USD 2199 for overseas users)
 
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ThomasXia

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I feel like you are at risk of unwittingly becoming a middle man in some kind of disagreement between Chinese people, about a thing of little to no import to this forum.
You're right, that risk does exist, although we may not have intended to do so. Just wanted to provide more information for readers passing by, so if any of the translated content misinterprets the original meaning, please point it out in time. More discussion beyond the technologies themselves is really unnecessary, and it was only because of your query that I briefly outlined the designer's background before.
 

AndreaT

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“The horror, the horror…”

Horrible speaker that likely damages your occipital cortex neurons skewing the balance of tone and adds audible distortion. How not to listen to Music.

Thank you Amir!
 

BioCentauri

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@amirm Isn't this argument somewhat pointless, in that you are arguing with someone who doesn't speak good (any?) English, whose mother tongue is a language far removed from English, which is very easy to mis-translate/misunderstand in the back and forth between the two languages, and whose products are unavailable outside China. I refer back to my comment in post #200.

I feel like you are at risk of unwittingly becoming a middle man in some kind of disagreement between Chinese people, about a thing of little to no import to this forum.
With due respect, there is a non-trival chance that the trend ushered in by speakers like the X5 might change the industry, thus affecting all of us, Chinese & non-Chinese alike. As mentioned in this forum before, good/transparent DAC's and Amp's can now be had for unheard of low prices, thanks to Chinese manufacturer's like Topping & SMSL. Speakers might be next. Coming in from the low end, followed by moving up the ladder, is a tried and true strategy. Edifier and Swan are eamples. The Chinese domestic audio market are exploding, propelled by mostly young and audio naive crowds. The scale can dwarf the existing market. What happens in China now may translate to the outside, in surprisingly short order. Thus it bohooves us to pay attention. I, for one, am VERY interested in ASR reviews of Chinese speakers.
 
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amirm

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@amirm Isn't this argument somewhat pointless, in that you are arguing with someone who doesn't speak good (any?) English, whose mother tongue is a language far removed from English, which is very easy to mis-translate/misunderstand in the back and forth between the two languages, and whose products are unavailable outside China. I refer back to my comment in post #200.

I feel like you are at risk of unwittingly becoming a middle man in some kind of disagreement between Chinese people, about a thing of little to no import to this forum.
??? The borders of this discussion have gone way beyond this speaker and into the designer claiming that Klippel NFS has problems measuring speakers. I have no trouble reading his arguments as I am familiar with what angle he is going after. It is critical that we don't allow a bunch of claims by someone who has not used NFS to cloud the performance of the system we use day in and day out to evaluate speakers. Should someone get bent out of shape, so be it. I would act the same if the person was from US.
 

RayDunzl

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I must admit, when I first saw the thread title, I thought it was another post by the drive-by spammer from a few months ago.
 

Digby

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??? The borders of this discussion have gone way beyond this speaker and into the designer claiming that Klippel NFS has problems measuring speakers. I have no trouble reading his arguments as I am familiar with what angle he is going after. It is critical that we don't allow a bunch of claims by someone who has not used NFS to cloud the performance of the system we use day in and day out to evaluate speakers. I would act the same if the person was from US.
It is your forum, so it is your call, but if the arguments made carry no weight...why open a can of worms?
 

192kbps

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??? The borders of this discussion have gone way beyond this speaker and into the designer claiming that Klippel NFS has problems measuring speakers. I have no trouble reading his arguments as I am familiar with what angle he is going after. It is critical that we don't allow a bunch of claims by someone who has not used NFS to cloud the performance of the system we use day in and day out to evaluate speakers. Should someone get bent out of shape, so be it. I would act the same if the person was from US.
In fact, the designer once claimed that he had used NFS for a year and earlier than ASR, and released a measurement photo using NFS.
I think this is the problem. The designer has a great influence. If what he said is wrong, it will be of great significance if someone can correct his mistakes.
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192kbps

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It is your forum, so it is your call, but if the arguments made carry no weight...why open a can of worms?
I sent this speaker for testing. As I said earlier, the designer has a great influence in China. He was also an engineer of Harman and many companies under Harman, and their speaker was developed with another senior acoustic engineer, who was also a senior engineer of JBL. All these are public information, and their speakers can be sold abroad. And for translation, we proofread them again and again, and give the source. The designer is not willing to come to ASR to reply to amirm. I think it is necessary to translate his article. Otherwise, it is unfair to ASR. Many people in China browse ASR and pay attention to the measurement of this speaker. I believe that not only in China, the debate between the anechoic chamber and NFS is a very noteworthy issue. According to the designer, he is only aiming at NFS rather than X5 measurement, but if NFS is inaccurate, Isn't the measurement of X5 and all speakers using NFS measurement meaningless? I think this is a very serious and serious problem that needs to be made public.

If all this has given you a bad feeling, I'm sorry again. If you still want to express your opinion, I hope you click "unwatch".
 
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Digby

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If all this has given you a bad feeling, I'm sorry again. If you still want to express your opinion, I hope you click "unwatch"
You're right, I apologise. You've changed my mind. I think this issue is very important and should be given the utmost attention.
 
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