Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

[YSC]

So, why do they cost so much?

Is it the research that hit them to this stage? The materials? Manufacturing costs (other than materials)?

Or, put another way, would it be possible to do this, only cheaper?

labor cost in finland, extensive research and patent to get this far, quality control in finland, recycled aluminium as material are all very expensive, plus they have to stock enough spare parts and support network etc. all that translates into massive cost, plus they need to make a profit to feed the boss sens all those expensive management and experts within the company.

a DIY DSP speaker might be able to get close to it in subjective performance, but how long can you still find stuffs to repair it once it breaks? also a DIY speaker didn't have those tests for reliability.

 

[digitalfrost]

The fact is, you cannot get a coax chassis that is on the level of Genelec anywhere. Even getting KEF level coaxes is impossible in the DIY market. I really liked Thiel chassis back when they were available to the DIY market, but you can't buy that no more. So can you build a good DIY speaker with controlled directivity? Absolutely. Just look at the Directiva. But the Genelec and KEF coaxes are on a another level and there is no OEM selling it to you.

This level of performance is very interesting. The 8351B is almost not worth it. If you can spend 8k on a pair of speakers you can spend 10k. However, if you were to do separate bass management, the 8341 might be enough and you could put the rest of the money into the subwoofers, DSPs and amplification.

 

[audio2920]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but I've been focusing on the best way to stream to these speakers. You don't need a DAC, but you do need a balanced digital output and those are rare in consumer level streamers. I understand that you can convert an RCA output, e.g. the digital output from a Node, but according to Paul at BS Audio that is not wise. It can be done but you lose the advantages of a balanced connection.

True, but it's probably a non-issue... Personally I'd try just stuff unbalanced in and see how it goes! I've done that loads of times as most of my kit is balanced. Especially if you already own an unbalanced streamer?

I've never A/B'd unbalanced vs balanced digital directly though, but, I can't imagine balancing does anything for jitter or anything of consequence, on a short cable run? It just makes it more robust for the long runs needed in pro installations I think.

 

[DanielT]

But what does DIY speakers have to do with these Genelec 8361A?

Nothing wrong with DIY. On the contrary, it's fun. A hobby. DIY as long as you have self-insight and realize what you can achieve based on given conditions.. I'm not a Michelin 3-star chef but .... you get the point ...

 

[TimVG]

Man that's such a weird purist opinion that is honestly disjointed from the world of music production.

People travel across the world to perform and record in gigantic places of worship and concert halls with reverberation times reaching 5 or 6 seconds! for him to think that this phenomenal effect is 'undesirable echo' is frankly rude!

Everyone would love to have that sort of effect in their listening spaces, people in small rooms have to either endure distortions caused by reflections or treat their rooms really well and have a 'headphone' like effect where there are no sense of spaciousness at all.

There is a big difference between performance (production) and reproduction.

 

[Sancus]

So I'd love to hear alternative options for streaming into the Genelecs, there should be a less expensive way than the Aries or Matrix.

Anything with a spdif output will work with the right cable, and maybe an impedance converter if the cable run is long. So a $100 Topping D10S. For standalone streamers the miniDSP SHD studio exists. There have also been previous threads on this topic.

 

[Mathias]

So I'd love to hear alternative options for streaming into the Genelecs, there should be a less expensive way than the Aries or Matrix.

I think you can use any streamer with USB output(Rpi, pc, android based streamer, etc) and with an USB to AES converter.(topping u90, etc)

 

[abdo123]

What is rude is replying before reading the post fully.

I specifically said “non-classical recordings”. All other musicians travel to a studio…

I was not replying to you.

 

[abdo123]

There is a big difference between performance (production) and reproduction.

Still there is no situation where I wouldn't pick reverbration over headphone-like and reflection mess.

 

[echopraxia]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but I've been focusing on the best way to stream to these speakers. You don't need a DAC, but you do need a balanced digital output and those are rare in consumer level streamers. I understand that you can convert an RCA output, e.g. the digital output from a Node, but according to Paul at BS Audio that is not wise. It can be done but you lose the advantages of a balanced connection.
So if that is true we need something with a genuine balanced digital output and in my case I need built in streaming platforms, including Spotify. One candidate is the Aries G1, a very expensive bridge, no DAC, and it has native Tidal and Qobuz but not Spotify. And it's pricey at about $2900 retail. Aurender might have something similar but I am not familiar with their lineup.

I appears easier to use a streamer/DAC like the Matrix X-Spectre3. I just bought one of these and have been trying to work it into my 2 channel setup. It would be an easy setup to send the balanced analog outputs to the Genelecs; you'd have the built in streaming platforms and a nice volume control. Not sure if it would be a waste of the wonderful DAC, given all the digital manipulations that would go on in the Genelec, but no harm done sending a pristine signal into the speakers.

So I'd love to hear alternative options for streaming into the Genelecs, there should be a less expensive way than the Aries or Matrix.

All that concern about needing to use balanced digital inputs only (vs e.g. a simple adaptor from RCA coax SPDIF to XLR) is nonsense, unless maybe you’re trying to run extremely long digital cables.

I used to just plug the coaxial SPDIF output of my Sonos Port directly into one of my Genelec’s (via cheap RCA -> XLR cable from Amazon.com), then use a cheap XLR->XLR cable to daisy chain to the other.

It works perfectly.

If you really need to run digital cables hundreds of feet or something, then you can get a $50 digital transformer to convert the impedance from RCA SPDIF into the ideal impedance for XLR AES/EBU. The digital signal is the same; the only differences are electrical impedance/etc. that only really matter for extremely long cable runs.

Now, I use my Denon AVR preamp outputs (for multichannel) into the speakers analog inputs. I can’t really tell any difference vs pure digital (though I know pure digital is of course theoretically the only ideal way to go), and I suspect anyone telling you there is a big difference is hallucinating it via the well-known noceb-placebo effect we see in audio all the time. If there is any difference, it wouldn’t be due to frequency response (which should be unaffected unless your analog source is really bad), so it would have to be due to extremely subtle THD+N which for all but the most horrible DACs is likely well below the limits of human hearing anyway (unless the analog source is really bad, which it very well could cause some issues — but I have no doubt the ADC In the Genelecs will be audibly transparent).

 

[Tangband]

Reference #1 is not applicable on almost any non-classical recording since the 80s where everything was close miked to multitrack and any reverb was applied artificially at mixing.

Reference #2 is what I will interpret as the sound of the room. The so called Precedence Effect is, as the name says, is an effect. It’s not natural. I rather not have a room sound.

I disagree with Dr Toole that unless you record the spatial information (in multi-channel, discreet surround) you cannot extract the spatial information. You may create a pleasing effect but that’s what it is, an effect…

The precedence effect is not an effect that you can be without . Its a reality in how the brain selects sound. But maybe that was what you ment ?

The walls can be used as an ”effect” in 2 channel reproduction where 20 ms delayed reflections, both in purist 2 channel recordings in a real concert hall and at home when listening in a big room, can fill up the flawed stereo-system and making the illusion somewhat bigger. This is ofcourse an effect , desired or not.

Precedence effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

”The precedence effect can be employed to increase the perception of ambience during the playback of stereo recordings.[11] If two speakers are placed to the left and right of the listener (in addition to the main speakers), and fed with the program material delayed by 10 to 20 milliseconds, the random-phase ambience components of the sound will become sufficiently decorrelated that they cannot be localized. This effectively extracts the recording's existing ambience, while leaving its foreground "direct" sounds still appearing to come from the front.[12][13]

 

[Spocko]

Man that's such a weird purist opinion that is honestly disjointed from the world of music production.

People travel across the world to perform and record in gigantic places of worship and concert halls with reverberation times reaching 5 or 6 seconds! for him to think that this phenomenal effect is 'undesirable echo' is frankly rude!

Everyone would love to have that sort of effect in their listening spaces, people in small rooms have to either endure distortions caused by reflections or treat their rooms really well and have a 'headphone' like effect where there are no sense of spaciousness at all.

We're talking definitions here and this is purely in the context of research not listener preference. The "undesirable" part is my own commentary as I meant it to mean that the echo is undesirable as it is not "Precedence Effect" (the subject of the investigation) but a different audio artifact separate and apart from the direct sound not co-existing as part of it. Echo may be desirable as you said but now we're talking listener preference. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[echopraxia]

Of course for audio science purists like us, digital is the only “correct” way to go. I’d love to be using digital just for the sake of digital purism, and not waste those fancy digital inputs my speakers have But sadly, I haven’t found any AVR that supports multichannel digital outputs that costs less than a new car. I can maybe be convinced to pay the cost of an economy car on speakers like my Genelec 5.1 setup (because the value is both measurable objectively and significant subjectively) — but not for a ridiculously exotic-priced AVR just to get digital outputs, which I know isn’t likely gonna have an audible difference anyway.

 

[Tangband]

All that concern about needing to use balanced digital inputs only (vs e.g. a simple adaptor from RCA coax SPDIF to XLR) is nonsense, unless maybe you’re trying to run extremely long digital cables.

I used to just plug the coaxial SPDIF output of my Sonos Port directly into one of my Genelec’s (via cheap RCA -> XLR cable from Amazon.com), then use a cheap XLR->XLR cable to daisy chain to the other.

It works perfectly.

If you really need to run digital cables hundreds of feet or something, then you can get a $50 digital transformer to convert the impedance from RCA SPDIF into the ideal impedance for XLR AES/EBU. The digital signal is the same; the only differences are electrical impedance/etc. that only really matter for extremely long cable runs.

Now, I use my Denon AVR preamp outputs (for multichannel) into the speakers analog inputs. I can’t really tell any difference vs pure digital (though I know pure digital is of course theoretically the only ideal way to go), and I suspect anyone telling you there is a big difference is hallucinating it via the well-known noceb-placebo effect we see in audio all the time. If there is any difference, it wouldn’t be due to frequency response (which should be unaffected unless your analog source is really bad), so it would have to be due to extremely subtle THD+N which for all but the most horrible DACs is likely well below the limits of human hearing anyway (unless the analog source is really bad, which it very well could cause some issues — but I have no doubt the ADC In the Genelecs will be audibly transparent).

If your digital source-signal is on a quality about the same as a yamaha wxc50 spdif out, then its hard to hear any difference between analog connection and digital. But if you use TIDAL or similar from a computer and a dedicated USB bridge ( good isolation with transformer, good volume 24 bit regulation in digital domain, good clocks ) then there is a small notisable improvement if using a digital connection . At least thats true with my 8340, but maybe the 8361 is less sensitive with different source signals using a better AD ?

 

[aarons915]

The fact is, you cannot get a coax chassis that is on the level of Genelec anywhere. Even getting KEF level coaxes is impossible in the DIY market. I really liked Thiel chassis back when they were available to the DIY market, but you can't buy that no more. So can you build a good DIY speaker with controlled directivity? Absolutely. Just look at the Directiva. But the Genelec and KEF coaxes are on a another level and there is no OEM selling it to you.

This level of performance is very interesting. The 8351B is almost not worth it. If you can spend 8k on a pair of speakers you can spend 10k. However, if you were to do separate bass management, the 8341 might be enough and you could put the rest of the money into the subwoofers, DSPs and amplification.

I would go further and say the 8341 is actually the best in the series IF it gets loud enough for your space and listening levels, bass management should help quite a bit with that. The 8331/8341 uses the smaller midrange/tweeter unit so they have wider dispersion and smoother directivity than the larger models.

 

[Tangband]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but I've been focusing on the best way to stream to these speakers. You don't need a DAC, but you do need a balanced digital output and those are rare in consumer level streamers. I understand that you can convert an RCA output, e.g. the digital output from a Node, but according to Paul at BS Audio that is not wise. It can be done but you lose the advantages of a balanced connection.
So if that is true we need something with a genuine balanced digital output and in my case I need built in streaming platforms, including Spotify. One candidate is the Aries G1, a very expensive bridge, no DAC, and it has native Tidal and Qobuz but not Spotify. And it's pricey at about $2900 retail. Aurender might have something similar but I am not familiar with their lineup.

I appears easier to use a streamer/DAC like the Matrix X-Spectre3. I just bought one of these and have been trying to work it into my 2 channel setup. It would be an easy setup to send the balanced analog outputs to the Genelecs; you'd have the built in streaming platforms and a nice volume control. Not sure if it would be a waste of the wonderful DAC, given all the digital manipulations that would go on in the Genelec, but no harm done sending a pristine signal into the speakers.

So I'd love to hear alternative options for streaming into the Genelecs, there should be a less expensive way than the Aries or Matrix.

There is already suggestions of much cheaper digital gear to get really good sound from the Genelecs in this thread. Read it . .

Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

But 100% worth it. And in a few weeks or so, I'll have 3 ;) Which is what I have. Love them!

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sancus]

But sadly, I haven’t found any AVR that supports multichannel digital outputs that costs less than a new car.

The cheapest option remains the JBL SDP-55 with Dante ->AES adapters I'm pretty sure. I actually don't know how cheap you can get it from a friendly dealer but the MSRP of $6000 is still too much imo.

 

[Tangband]

The cheapest option remains the JBL SDP-55 with Dante ->AES adapters I'm pretty sure. I actually don't know how cheap you can get it from a friendly dealer but the MSRP of $6000 is still too much imo.

Edit: only a two channel solution - If youre using a computer as digital source, this is a good sounding solution if you have digital cable length shorter than 4 metres from digital source to the first Genelec. Use a rca-xlr cable 110 Ohm.
This unit uses the xu208 chip for low jitter.
49 dollars.

https://www.amazon.com/Douk-Audio-Converter-Interface-PCM192Khz/dp/B085XPRSGM

 

[Tangband]

If you want an AES digital output this solution seems good - 149 euro, about 170 dollars.

AUDIOPHONICS XMOS U208 Digital interface USB I2S AES 2x TCXO OTG 24bit 192kHz - Audiophonics

This interface based on the now famous XMOS provides high level digital outputs in S/PDIF coaxial, optical, AES/EBU and I2S. USB has Asynchronous USB management.

www.audiophonics.fr

 

[Sancus]

If youre using a computer as digital source

I was referring to AVRs that can decode Atmos and upmix while still having digital outs.