We used to use Crown amps in several bands I played in. They are first and foremost "pro gear" They were rugged, powerful, reliable and perfectly suited to live performances. Would I use them in my home audiio systems? Even though they have improved the noise floor, distortion levels and channel separation I have never considered them or any "pro gear" for my home audio systems. That doesn't mean they won't work for home audio. That all depends on one's budget and the level of performance sought. All the BS arguments about what is audible and what is not aside... spec's are measurable and better spec's indicate better performance.
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Crown amp?
- Thread starter David Harper
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We used to use Crown amps in several bands I played in. They are first and foremost "pro gear" They were rugged, powerful, reliable and perfectly suited to live performances. Would I use them in my home audiio systems? Even though they have improved the noise floor, distortion levels and channel separation I have never considered them or any "pro gear" for my home audio systems. That doesn't mean they won't work for home audio. That all depends on one's budget and the level of performance sought. All the BS arguments about what is audible and what is not aside... spec's are measurable and better spec's indicate better performance.
Oh, and even if this is ASR where people are focused on rationality and hard evidence I wouldn't place any more weight on opinions here than anywhere else because most of us are just talking out of our ass with perpetually repeated assumptions and statements that may or may not actually hold any real truth to it.
Wow! That was on point! It is the number one way that most comments are made. Repeating what they have heard from someone else.
My Crown amp works great! I'm only using 88 to 90db sensitive speakers (Martin Logan) and there is no hiss. Also the fan never turns on. Lets get to some elephants running around in the room.
1. Any post on Crown amps brings out guys who had Crowns from 30 to 40 years ago (older than dirt) and didn't like them for home use.
2. The idiotic weird and crazy idea that someone should turn the volume up to maximum, put their ear up against the speaker and see if they can hear any hiss. What is this supposed to do? I can tell you with 100% certainty it is not telling you what you think it is. You are amplifying noise from your pre-amp, which is not the Crown amps fault. Also, the hiss is so low and you have to put your ear to the speaker that it has no, zero, none whatsoever effect on your music listening. It is like saying you can hear gnat pass gas as it fly's by. I wish people would STOP doing this supposed test and reporting on internet sites. If it was a hiss audible at the listening position then maybe it might be valid. The "real" valid test is to turn the volume to 50% to 70% and see if you can hear any hiss at your sitting position.
3. Trying to do the above test on speakers with a 98 to 100db sensitivity. Those speakers are outliers and not anywhere near the norm in home audio. Something in the 82 to 92 range covers probably 97% of all speakers for home use. Bringing up weird exceptions to normalcy and then condemning the amp is nuts.
4. All this concern about fan noise. Most people will tell you the fans never even turn on in home audio. If they do, your volume level is so high that you still should not hear the fans. But, in some very rare, exceptional cases, this "could" possibly happen. But I would not see it as a concern for most people wanting to try a Crown amp. It is in my opinion blown way out of proportion when ever anyone brings up Crown amps and fans.
5. Massive amounts of hearsay brought up on any Crown amp thread. If you have not personally heard fan noise while sitting in your listening chair with music, then it is a non-issue. Hiss? again if you have not heard any hiss at your listening chair it is a non-issue.
6. Of course my favorite that many of you have heard before, thinking you have God like hearing. Please refer to the gnat. It seems like 80% or more people believe they can hear things they can't hear. It is mind boggling how common this is.
Well, that is the elephants that need to be dealt with right away. People need to stop regurgitating what they read in another forum. Or in others posts on ASR.
But bottom line, remember I may have experience and I may know exactly what I'm talking about, but that does not make me the post controller. This is just my wish list for Crown amp threads. I live in hope that one day things will change. I'm not trying to be negative, I want to change the Crown threads in a positive way with my wish list! I know many of you may call me "Mr. Positive"!
1. Any post on Crown amps brings out guys who had Crowns from 30 to 40 years ago (older than dirt) and didn't like them for home use.
2. The idiotic weird and crazy idea that someone should turn the volume up to maximum, put their ear up against the speaker and see if they can hear any hiss. What is this supposed to do? I can tell you with 100% certainty it is not telling you what you think it is. You are amplifying noise from your pre-amp, which is not the Crown amps fault. Also, the hiss is so low and you have to put your ear to the speaker that it has no, zero, none whatsoever effect on your music listening. It is like saying you can hear gnat pass gas as it fly's by. I wish people would STOP doing this supposed test and reporting on internet sites. If it was a hiss audible at the listening position then maybe it might be valid. The "real" valid test is to turn the volume to 50% to 70% and see if you can hear any hiss at your sitting position.
3. Trying to do the above test on speakers with a 98 to 100db sensitivity. Those speakers are outliers and not anywhere near the norm in home audio. Something in the 82 to 92 range covers probably 97% of all speakers for home use. Bringing up weird exceptions to normalcy and then condemning the amp is nuts.
4. All this concern about fan noise. Most people will tell you the fans never even turn on in home audio. If they do, your volume level is so high that you still should not hear the fans. But, in some very rare, exceptional cases, this "could" possibly happen. But I would not see it as a concern for most people wanting to try a Crown amp. It is in my opinion blown way out of proportion when ever anyone brings up Crown amps and fans.
5. Massive amounts of hearsay brought up on any Crown amp thread. If you have not personally heard fan noise while sitting in your listening chair with music, then it is a non-issue. Hiss? again if you have not heard any hiss at your listening chair it is a non-issue.
6. Of course my favorite that many of you have heard before, thinking you have God like hearing. Please refer to the gnat. It seems like 80% or more people believe they can hear things they can't hear. It is mind boggling how common this is.
Well, that is the elephants that need to be dealt with right away. People need to stop regurgitating what they read in another forum. Or in others posts on ASR.
But bottom line, remember I may have experience and I may know exactly what I'm talking about, but that does not make me the post controller. This is just my wish list for Crown amp threads. I live in hope that one day things will change. I'm not trying to be negative, I want to change the Crown threads in a positive way with my wish list! I know many of you may call me "Mr. Positive"!
That's a very true statement, the big difference at ASR is that when folks post matters of opinion on sound and gear, they are quite often asked to produce the supporting evidence. Measurements and bias controlled listening tests hold sway here.
@Spkrdctr to your Point 2, quiescent hiss is the hiss produced by an amp with zero input. The preamp doesn't have to be on, let alone turned up to full, to hear the hiss from an amp with much of it. Sure, you can turn down the attenuators on the amp itself (not possible on many amps, of course, that don't have gain controls), but then you aren't getting the power you bought.
To your Point 5, My B&K amps hiss noticeably less than the budget Crown amp of recent make that I installed in a sound system at my church, but I can still hear their hiss in my living room if they are on. Those amps are also cooled with a thermostatically controlled fan to make sure the upper amp isn't heated by the lower amp, and I can hear that fan even based on 60 watts of quiescent power dissipation as heat (which is probably about the same, watt for watt, as an A/B-topology Crown like the budget XLI800 I have used). The fans on that amp do occasionally run, but I agree they are not usually noticeable.
I reported my experience with actual Crown amps, and a particular recent amp, and how it compares to what I am currently using in my home. Whether my experiences transport to the OP is for the OP to determine.
Rick "agreeing that negative comments about Crown amps should be based on actual experience with Crown amps and not hearsay" Denney
To your Point 5, My B&K amps hiss noticeably less than the budget Crown amp of recent make that I installed in a sound system at my church, but I can still hear their hiss in my living room if they are on. Those amps are also cooled with a thermostatically controlled fan to make sure the upper amp isn't heated by the lower amp, and I can hear that fan even based on 60 watts of quiescent power dissipation as heat (which is probably about the same, watt for watt, as an A/B-topology Crown like the budget XLI800 I have used). The fans on that amp do occasionally run, but I agree they are not usually noticeable.
I reported my experience with actual Crown amps, and a particular recent amp, and how it compares to what I am currently using in my home. Whether my experiences transport to the OP is for the OP to determine.
Rick "agreeing that negative comments about Crown amps should be based on actual experience with Crown amps and not hearsay" Denney
You still need to be specific about which particular Crown amps. The current XLS (DriveCore) series may have very quiet fans compared to some other series (and there was an XLS series back many years that was completely different). FWIW....
True, if you really want to do this, disconnect the preamp, put shorting plugs on the input, (if the amp has level controls turn them up, then go stick your head in the tweeter.
Discussion of hiss is something I've mainly heard here was with plate amps in some active horn tweeter designs.
Again true. The only time I had noise/hiss issues with my La Scala's was with my VTL tube amps. Very demanding of low noise driver 12AT7 driver tubes and even good ones would get noisy over time. Those amps were never 100% quiet but that's comes with 1940s tech. The KHorns were mostly quiet with modern SS amps I used from the Crown D150 to the Phase Linear 700B I owned.
Exactly, the fan noise from my music server computer can be disturbing at very soft listening levels. A new server is in the design stages. But for amps, if you can hear noise at the SPL level that energized the fans, something is broke.
Rick, I know you know all about the elephants running around here. Your experience is valid. But, many are rehashed from reading about Crown amps. I also ask that people who use Crown amps at home buy enough amp that the fans will most likely never turn on. They are inexpensive and easy to buy extra power!
Sal, in reference to your shorting plugs, I find they work much better on the output of amps. Why bother with the input? I say do a test where you will get spectacular results. Oh, and quite possibly a repair bill.......... I can see people reading your statement and doing the shorted inputs test to hear hiss. Still putting their ear within 3 inches of the drivers/tweeter. Hey, at least I tried to edumacate........
We should start a new "Hillbilly Audio" thread where we talk about all the crazy crackpot stuff that can be done. Nothing like letting the smoke out of those congested speakers!
My Crown amp works great! I'm only using 88 to 90db sensitive speakers (Martin Logan) and there is no hiss. Also the fan never turns on. Lets get to some elephants running around in the room.
1. Any post on Crown amps brings out guys who had Crowns from 30 to 40 years ago (older than dirt) and didn't like them for home use.
2. The idiotic weird and crazy idea that someone should turn the volume up to maximum, put their ear up against the speaker and see if they can hear any hiss. What is this supposed to do? I can tell you with 100% certainty it is not telling you what you think it is. You are amplifying noise from your pre-amp, which is not the Crown amps fault. Also, the hiss is so low and you have to put your ear to the speaker that it has no, zero, none whatsoever effect on your music listening. It is like saying you can hear gnat pass gas as it fly's by. I wish people would STOP doing this supposed test and reporting on internet sites. If it was a hiss audible at the listening position then maybe it might be valid. The "real" valid test is to turn the volume to 50% to 70% and see if you can hear any hiss at your sitting position.
3. Trying to do the above test on speakers with a 98 to 100db sensitivity. Those speakers are outliers and not anywhere near the norm in home audio. Something in the 82 to 92 range covers probably 97% of all speakers for home use. Bringing up weird exceptions to normalcy and then condemning the amp is nuts.
4. All this concern about fan noise. Most people will tell you the fans never even turn on in home audio. If they do, your volume level is so high that you still should not hear the fans. But, in some very rare, exceptional cases, this "could" possibly happen. But I would not see it as a concern for most people wanting to try a Crown amp. It is in my opinion blown way out of proportion when ever anyone brings up Crown amps and fans.
5. Massive amounts of hearsay brought up on any Crown amp thread. If you have not personally heard fan noise while sitting in your listening chair with music, then it is a non-issue. Hiss? again if you have not heard any hiss at your listening chair it is a non-issue.
6. Of course my favorite that many of you have heard before, thinking you have God like hearing. Please refer to the gnat. It seems like 80% or more people believe they can hear things they can't hear. It is mind boggling how common this is.
Well, that is the elephants that need to be dealt with right away. People need to stop regurgitating what they read in another forum. Or in others posts on ASR.
But bottom line, remember I may have experience and I may know exactly what I'm talking about, but that does not make me the post controller. This is just my wish list for Crown amp threads. I live in hope that one day things will change. I'm not trying to be negative, I want to change the Crown threads in a positive way with my wish list! I know many of you may call me "Mr. Positive"!
Use whatever equipment you want. Forums are for discussions. Who cares if anyone thinks you are a "post controller"? Personnally I'm sick of folks insisting what levels of distortion can or can't be heard. We don't listen to distortion, but we do listen to how distortion and other amp characteristics affect the signal they amplify. It is what it is.
Have you ever seen Crown demo' their amps with any speakers other than "pro" speakers at any trade show? Have you ever seen any "home audio" speaker makers use Crown amps at trade shows? How do you know what others can hear and can't hear in their systems or from others? Personally I can tell you that I haven't heard any hiss or fan noise from my systems (plural) because I, (like many others) understand how to build a system to avoid it. You loose crediblity when you start using exaggerated unreferenced percentages and making emotional statements. Good luck with that day when things change and you agree with what folks say about Crown amps, or any piece of eqipment.
Clue: rational people understand they can't rationalize with the irrational.
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Yes, but the XLS amps are Class D, right? The XLI series is Class AB, and consequently heavy and warm in comparison.
Rick "agreeing" Denney
Do it! II have some stuff to add.
I have had some experience with Crowns over the last decade or so. Several friends and their gear:
My friend (RIP) had a pair of Macrotech 5000VZ and 3600VZ, Comtech 1600/400.
The 5000 have fans that run hard at start-up, and slow down to a modest breath. It's not really noticeable during use, and they are very clean and balanced sounding amps. Beware the lights dimming and the draw when used on 120V.
The 3600, however, have LOUD fans run from a fan-former. My friend had them modded to run very quietly. These have a bit of a midbass emphasis, but it's not something that sounds awful. I prefer the 5000 in terms of clean output. He preferred the slam of the 3600.
The Comtech models were fanned on low, but have bass damping that seemed to lack control. They sounded loose by comparison to the two MT pairs.
Another friend had the MacroReference, and it was great when it worked. It died about 5 years ago now. BTW- some parts for these and the 5000 are basically NLA.
I have another friend with an original XLS402. Since he used it in home, he disconnected the fan. I know of another that did a DC-fan replacement and a wall-wart supply (jinjuku). These really were no-frills ballsy amps that did anything I ever asked of them. I never heard them stock.
I have 4x of the XLS Drivecore (silver) models, none of the XLS2 (black). I have a pair of 1500 for L/R front and L/R surround. I have a 2000 that I've used repeatedly for InDIYana speaker event shows, and yet a 1000 that I bought cheaply. The S/N of the 1000 is it's downfall for full bandwidth signals. The 2000 is a beast. The 1500 pair bridged mono for L/R is pretty awesome. The fans on these do run periodically whether making much heat or not, maybe 10 second intervals, but they are really quiet and basically unnoticeable. I run them with the limiters OFF from my Anthem AVM-30, and I could not be happier.
My friend (RIP) had a pair of Macrotech 5000VZ and 3600VZ, Comtech 1600/400.
The 5000 have fans that run hard at start-up, and slow down to a modest breath. It's not really noticeable during use, and they are very clean and balanced sounding amps. Beware the lights dimming and the draw when used on 120V.
The 3600, however, have LOUD fans run from a fan-former. My friend had them modded to run very quietly. These have a bit of a midbass emphasis, but it's not something that sounds awful. I prefer the 5000 in terms of clean output. He preferred the slam of the 3600.
The Comtech models were fanned on low, but have bass damping that seemed to lack control. They sounded loose by comparison to the two MT pairs.
Another friend had the MacroReference, and it was great when it worked. It died about 5 years ago now. BTW- some parts for these and the 5000 are basically NLA.
I have another friend with an original XLS402. Since he used it in home, he disconnected the fan. I know of another that did a DC-fan replacement and a wall-wart supply (jinjuku). These really were no-frills ballsy amps that did anything I ever asked of them. I never heard them stock.
I have 4x of the XLS Drivecore (silver) models, none of the XLS2 (black). I have a pair of 1500 for L/R front and L/R surround. I have a 2000 that I've used repeatedly for InDIYana speaker event shows, and yet a 1000 that I bought cheaply. The S/N of the 1000 is it's downfall for full bandwidth signals. The 2000 is a beast. The 1500 pair bridged mono for L/R is pretty awesome. The fans on these do run periodically whether making much heat or not, maybe 10 second intervals, but they are really quiet and basically unnoticeable. I run them with the limiters OFF from my Anthem AVM-30, and I could not be happier.
"What is audible" may be a subject some choose to avoid, that does not make it BS. It should be, from an objective viewpoint a rather important consideration unless you simply enjoy throwing money around.
There is an XLS series that are class AB. I have a couple of XLS 602 that are AB and they also came in like 202 402 and other bigger sizes. Mine are 600 wpc into 4 ohms and 380 into 8.
There were two series of these AB versions but I think they have recycled the model number maybe a couple of times.
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If you’re referring to the DCI Network amps…maybe - but I’m definitely going to be leaving hacking the cooling system of a currently $8300 amp to somebody else!
To echo what @Chrispy and @Wolf wrote, XLS is not DCI is CT is not iTech, etc. “Crown amp” is unworkably vague. And yes, there are people here who use all of the above.
Yes. They had different faceplates and “JBL Synthesis” nameplates, but everyone knows what they are. Harman reps will tell you as much, too.
One interesting fan annoyance for the CTS series is the DSP input module has its own very small fan. (PiP3 CN) This has an annoying high pitched sound.
If these get installed in my main system I will be totally removing the fans and making an air handling system to off load the air movement to a much larger , slower and quieter system (yet to be concocted.)
They also have fans for the amp which will probably be replaced with something quieter and perhaps thermostatically controlled. (if they aren't already.)
If these get installed in my main system I will be totally removing the fans and making an air handling system to off load the air movement to a much larger , slower and quieter system (yet to be concocted.)
They also have fans for the amp which will probably be replaced with something quieter and perhaps thermostatically controlled. (if they aren't already.)
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There is also the Lexicon DD8...If you’re referring to the DCI Network amps…maybe - but I’m definitely going to be leaving hacking the cooling system of a currently $8300 amp to somebody else!
To echo what @Chrispy and @Wolf wrote, XLS is not DCI is CT is not iTech, etc. “Crown amp” is unworkably vague. And yes, there are people here who use all of the above.
Yes. They had different faceplates and “JBL Synthesis” nameplates, but everyone knows what they are. Harman reps will tell you as much, too.
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