Mahler - Symphony No. 2

[fordiebianco]

That's not what ad hominem means.

 

[Daverz]

View attachment 160765

Excellent, so as you can see "making negative aesthetic judgments about the quality of an artist's output" is not among the definitions.

 

[fordiebianco]

Excellent, so as you can see "making negative aesthetic judgments about the quality of an artist's output" is not among the definitions.

Well, if you put it like THAT.

 

[Robin L]

Excellent, so as you can see "making negative aesthetic judgments about the quality of an artist's output" is not among the definitions.

Pointing to post # 63:

bitchy
[ˈbiCHē]

ADJECTIVE
informal
(bitchierbitchiest)

1. (of a person's comments or behavior) malicious or unpleasant.
   "bitchy remarks"
   synonyms:
   malicious · mean · nasty · cruel · unkind · unfriendly · snide · hurtful · wounding · barbed · cutting · hateful · ill-natured · bitter · venomous · poisonous · acid · hostile · rancorous · malevolent · evil-intentioned · baleful · vindictive · vengeful · . . .
   
   

 

[rdenney]

This is interesting. Now I realize that I've made a major imprecision, betraying my own line of thinking.

There are two different themes here: one is the historical point of view, that is, trying to understand how original performances were. That makes us close to the composer's intention, or original intention, or original facts.

Having said that, one must recognize though that no human being is 100 % certain about his creations, and quite often composers like other's interpretations more than their owns. Mahler himself was very insecure about his compositions, and made changes during the years: changed tempi, movement orders, etc. That is a sign of a pursue of perfection that deviates clearly from the classical and romantic periods were pieces were rarely revised.

A different theme however is the quest for understanding what has been written, the score, alongside with its historical context, etc. Something that can only be done after some time. The goal of this line is to extract the maximum out of a score, interpreting what has been written. My opinion is that the best performances of a piece come from this approach, rather than trying to reproduce the original. Best in the sense that they are more informative and insightful, revealing more about the music and his author. In this category I find Klemperer's and Abbado's performances inferior to those Rattle or Tilson Thomas, and specially of Boulez's what I think is the most revealing and expressive one. In relation to the original performances however, the story is possibly the opposite, as the last posts highlight. ANd that is my mistake before, confusing the best interpretation with a piece with the composers intention. Those are simply two different things.

Well, anyway, thanks guys for your thoughts.

Vaughan Williams thought of Adrian Boult as a reliable comrade-in-arms. But his nickname for John Barbirolli was "Glorious John". Boult has seemed to me more...authoritative...but Barbirolli makes it really rock and roll. The Second Symphony present a good example.

I've heard Boult's supposedly authoritative version of Vaughan Williams's Fourth, but I also have the recording of Vaughan Williams conducting it himself, in 1937. That one is on fire! Boult's is sleepy by comparison. (That 1937 recording is also my refutation that bad sound quality can ruin a great performance.)

My Mahler 4th is Solti (with Chicago), and it's superb, but I simply don't have enough experience with different Mahlerian conductors to have a strong opinion about them, particular with respect to the second.

Rick "wondering whether Beethoven would have preferred the Fricsay/Cellibidache/Furtwangler camp or the Toscanini/Norrington camp" Denney

 

[xaviescacs]

Please explain: ad-hominem attacks on conductors puzzle me. Isn't it an artist's licence to interpret music the way she/he sees it?

I think we have the right to call an artist mediocre, the same we have the right to call him a genius. He is free to play whatever he wants and we are free as well to qualify the results, that's freedom on expression on both sides. I must say that I prefer people who state what they think than people who like everything. I don't share @Daverz 's strong opinion, but I think it's great that he expresses it, and it would be even better if he explains a little bit more with some examples, so we all can judge his point.

 

[Robin L]

Vaughan Williams thought of Adrian Boult as a reliable comrade-in-arms. But his nickname for John Barbirolli was "Glorious John". Boult has seemed to me more...authoritative...but Barbirolli makes it really rock and roll. The Second Symphony present a good example.

I've heard Boult's supposedly authoritative version of Vaughan Williams's Fourth, but I also have the recording of Vaughan Williams conducting it himself, in 1937. That one is on fire! Boult's is sleepy by comparison. (That 1937 recording is also my refutation that bad sound quality can ruin a great performance.)

My Mahler 4th is Solti (with Chicago), and it's superb, but I simply don't have enough experience with different Mahlerian conductors to have a strong opinion about them, particular with respect to the second.

Rick "wondering whether Beethoven would have preferred the Fricsay/Cellibidache/Furtwangler camp or the Toscanini/Norrington camp" Denney

Toscanini and Norrington are apples and avocados. Toscanini was a great conductor, but by the time he made the bulk of his recordings, he was a cranky old dude that fought against technology. This produced a threadbare sound. Studio 8-H was no place to make an orchestral recording, and when Toscanini recorded in a more welcoming environment, the results were usually dry and disembodied. This sort of audio document can be useful as an X-Ray of the score, but choirs within the orchestra couldn't blend. Not to mention that Toscanini didn't have to heart to get a new woodwind section. Norrington, on the other hand, kinda lucked into his status as a world renown Historically Informed Performer. The first issue in his Beethoven cycle, Symphonies 2 & 8, were carefully rehearsed and recorded. It was a sensation when it came out. The rest was rushed for a Christmas release. The 5th symphony from that set sounds like the face on the cutting room floor. Over headphones, the many edits are easy to spot.

Fricsay was a fairly normal conductor---his Beethoven Third Piano Concerto with Annie Fischer is a favorite. Furtwangler might have been on acid, judging from the results, Celibidache was probably on Secondal. Beethoven wouldn't of recognized any of them. John Eliot Gardiner made some Beethoven recordings I think Beethoven would have recognized as his own stuff. People tend to undervalue Beethoven's metronome markings. A full-sized, modern orchestra in a big hall would be a blur at Beethoven's suggested tempi. But his symphonies were played by smaller orchestras in smaller halls with instruments that deployed very sharp dynamic shifts. One finds the sforzando indication all over his scores. The sound of Beethoven's primary instrument, the fortepiano, has a short, sharp, shocked sound. Certain works by Beethoven---his Missa Solemnis in particular---make little sense when played in a slow and solemn fashion.

 

[Daverz]

I think we have the right to call an artist mediocre, the same we have the right to call him a genius. He is free to play whatever he wants and we are free as well to qualify the results, that's freedom on expression on both sides. I must say that I prefer people who state what they think than people who like everything. I don't share @Daverz 's strong opinion, but I think it's great that he expresses it, and it would be even better if he explains a little bit more with some examples, so we all can judge his point.

Rather than just bitch, why don't I start with what I felt was good enough to keep: his Szymanowski CDs are very good.

What other Rattle recordings would people say are actually essential rather than just competent (worth spending limited time on among all the other choices of recordings)?

 

[rdenney]

Toscanini and Norrington are apples and avocados. Toscanini was a great conductor, but by the time he made the bulk of his recordings, he was a cranky old dude that fought against technology. This produced a threadbare sound. Studio 8-H was no place to make an orchestral recording, and when Toscanini recorded in a more welcoming environment, the results were usually dry and disembodied. This sort of audio document can be useful as an X-Ray of the score, but choirs within the orchestra couldn't blend. Not to mention that Toscanini didn't have to heart to get a new woodwind section. Norrington, on the other hand, kinda lucked into his status as a world renown Historically Informed Performer. The first issue in his Beethoven cycle, Symphonies 2 & 8, were carefully rehearsed and recorded. It was a sensation when it came out. The rest was rushed for a Christmas release. The 5th symphony from that set sounds like the face on the cutting room floor. Over headphones, the many edits are easy to spot.

Fricsay was a fairly normal conductor---his Beethoven Third Piano Concerto with Annie Fischer is a favorite. Furtwangler might have been on acid, judging from the results, Celibidache was probably on Secondal. Beethoven wouldn't of recognized any of them. John Eliot Gardiner made some Beethoven recordings I think Beethoven would have recognized as his own stuff. People tend to undervalue Beethoven's metronome markings. A full-sized, modern orchestra in a big hall would be a blur at Beethoven's suggested tempi. But his symphonies were played by smaller orchestras in smaller halls with instruments that deployed very sharp dynamic shifts. One finds the sforzando indication all over his scores. The sound of Beethoven's primary instrument, the fortepiano, has a short, sharp, shocked sound. Certain works by Beethoven---his Missa Solemnis in particular---make little sense when played in a slow and solemn fashion.

Just making the distinction between lower, longer, wider of the German school of 75 years ago and the relatively crisp tempi of both Toscanini and Norrington (who actually did try to play at the marked tempi). I was not trying to say they were equal otherwise. Would Beethoven have cared about big halls? I rather think not. A lot of big halls actually provide greater clarity than small halls, and often to their discredit, even though the music won't sound as loud. (Example: Royal Festival Hall, which I actually rather liked).

And I don't mean to say I don't like one school or the other, but rather to reinforce the notion that the artist may not be the best editor of his own work.

Rick "agreeing about Missa Solemnis, but not only that work" Denney

 

[Daverz]

I've heard Boult's supposedly authoritative version of Vaughan Williams's Fourth, but I also have the recording of Vaughan Williams conducting it himself, in 1937. That one is on fire! Boult's is sleepy by comparison. (That 1937 recording is also my refutation that bad sound quality can ruin a great performance.)

Have you heard the Mitropoulos recording (1956) ?

 

[rdenney]

Have you heard the Mitropoulos recording?

I have not. For a while, I thought I owned every single recorded version of the Vaughan Williams 4, but apparently I missed one. (And others have come up since I finally said "enough!")

Rick "who listened to four separate versions on his last long drive" Denney

 

[Robin L]

Just making the distinction between lower, longer, wider of the German school of 75 years ago and the relatively crisp tempi of both Toscanini and Norrington (who actually did try to play at the marked tempi). I was not trying to say they were equal otherwise. Would Beethoven have cared about big halls? I rather think not. A lot of big halls actually provide greater clarity than small halls, and often to their discredit, even though the music won't sound as loud. (Example: Royal Festival Hall, which I actually rather liked).

And I don't mean to say I don't like one school or the other, but rather to reinforce the notion that the artist may not be the best editor of his own work.

Rick "agreeing about Missa Solemnis, but not only that work" Denney

Don't worry, I'm just being "bitchy". Shorter answer is: Beethoven asked for fast.

To go on further [not that you asked me to], the piano sonatas 1-10 [and 19 & 20, also early pieces] make more sense on fortepianos, or at least played in the manner of a fortepiano [as Wilhelm Kempff does], but the later these works get, the more the sustain of a modern piano makes sense. And I haven't thrown out my Furtwangler recordings of Beethoven, but I do think Beethoven would find them very strange, with all those tempo and dynamic adjustments made where none are asked for.

 

[Daverz]

I have not. For a while, I thought I owned every single recorded version of the Vaughan Williams 4, but apparently I missed one. (And others have come up since I finally said "enough!")

Rick "who listened to four separate versions on his last long drive" Denney

It was released on Sony Essential Classics along with Mitro's Tallis Fantasia and Stokowski's VW 6. It's also in a Sony box "The British Music Collection". And I've heard reports of a Mitropoulos box coming soon from Sony.

This transfer from LP on YT sounds pretty good (on my TV).

 

[Sombreuil]

Didn't know the random hate towards Rattle was still a thing in 2021 .
It's no wonder why the classical scene is seen as... Yeah, you know what I mean.

 

[rdenney]

Don't worry, I'm just being "bitchy". Shorter answer is: Beethoven asked for fast.

To go on further [not that you asked me to], the piano sonatas 1-10 [and 19 & 20, also early pieces] make more sense on fortepianos, or at least played in the manner of a fortepiano [as Wilhelm Kempff does], but the later these works get, the more the sustain of a modern piano makes sense. And I haven't thrown out my Furtwangler recordings of Beethoven, but I do think Beethoven would find them very strange, with all those tempo and dynamic adjustments are made where none are asked for.

The only Beethoven piano sonatas I have in my collection are the late sonatas (27-32), performed by Charles Rosen. I'm no expert on that repertoire, by any means, so I have no idea where he ranks in the grand scheme of things, but I enjoy them. I need to listen again to remind myself of how they were performed--how much of modern piano technology was used. Glenn Gould played Mozart on modern pianos, but he had them set up specially for that purpose, as I recall reading somewhere.

My own piano (a Hazelton Brothers 74" grand) dates from 1885, and has only seven octaves on the keyboard to prove it. But it is fully modern in the way it operates and sounds, except that there is no sostenuto pedal. It's 90 years too late for Beethoven's early works. (Not that any of that matters in my case--I can't play it at all--as a brass musician, my limited brain reads horizontally, not vertically, and my limit is playing vamps from lead sheets for rock-n-roll at-home karaoke, so that I don't have to think separately about two hands, let alone ten fingers.)

Rick "dilettante" Denney

 

[rdenney]

It was released on Sony Essential Classics along with Mitro's Tallis Fantasia and Stokowski's VW 6. It's also in a Sony box "The British Music Collection". And I've heard reports of a Mitropoulos box coming soon from Sony.

This transfer from LP on YT sounds pretty good (on my TV).

I have Stokowski's 4th with the NBC Orchestra, from 1943 and Barbirolli from 1944, but not this one. Must. Find.

Rick "off to Amazon" Denney

 

[suttondesign]

I'm fond of Simon Rattle's version with the CBSO. I registered with ASR to tell you this because I love this recording so much. This is the one with Arleen Auger and Dame Janet Baker.

this recording is inspiring, and the singing unbelievable.

 

[Robin L]

The only Beethoven piano sonatas I have in my collection are the late sonatas (27-32), performed by Charles Rosen. I'm no expert on that repertoire, by any means, so I have no idea where he ranks in the grand scheme of things, but I enjoy them. I need to listen again to remind myself of how they were performed--how much of modern piano technology was used. Glenn Gould played Mozart on modern pianos, but he had them set up specially for that purpose, as I recall reading somewhere.

My own piano (a Hazelton Brothers 74" grand) dates from 1885, and has only seven octaves on the keyboard to prove it. But it is fully modern in the way it operates and sounds, except that there is no sostenuto pedal. It's 90 years too late for Beethoven's early works. (Not that any of that matters in my case--I can't play it at all--as a brass musician, my limited brain reads horizontally, not vertically, and my limit is playing vamps from lead sheets for rock-n-roll at-home karaoke, so that I don't have to think separately about two hands, let alone ten fingers.)

Rick "dilettante" Denney

Right now I've got four complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, three backed up on portable media. And have lots of additional recordings of the sonatas. I've soaked up the music without having to even think of reading the stuff [though if you stick a score in front of me of music I'm familiar with and it's playing on the stereo, I can keep my place, more or less]. Artur Schnabel famously made the first complete set for EMI in the 1930s. Sound's no great shakes and there's no patching of takes, so it can be a rough ride for some. However, when he's good he's great and when he isn't he's flubbing a lot of notes. Annie Fischer's set on Hungaroton was recorded in the 1970's, has many of the features of Schnabel, like headlong tempi. But there's modern sound and editing. My Claudio Arrau set is from the 1960's, has a great recording job, tends more towards Furtwangler than Toscanini, but is not as reckless as the German conductor. That Charles Rosen set of the Late Sonatas is one of the best, along with the recordings of the three previously mentioned pianists. The other set I've got is in the Brilliant Beethoven box of everything. It's Brendel's Vox recordings, weak sound, weak playing. His efforts for Philips are enough better recorded to make him sound more interesting, albeit not a lot more interesting. Evgeny Kissin's recent recording of the final, Op. 111, sonata is one for the ages:

 

[MRC01]

When it comes to Beethoven piano concertos, Smashkenazy Ashkenazy is one of my favorites. Full of emotion, fire and dynamics. Reminds me of Berman or Berezovsky playing the Liszt etudes.

 

[Daverz]

I have Stokowski's 4th with the NBC Orchestra, from 1943 and Barbirolli from 1944, but not this one. Must. Find.

Rick "off to Amazon" Denney

For some reason I enjoyed listening to the YT transfer above on my TV more than the Sony CD transfer on my main rig. If you can't stream youtube to your stereo, you can find those transfers here:

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 4 (Mitropoulos)

"Hold your Hat!" - These were the words inscribed inside the album cover for the first copy I owned of Vaughan Williams conducting his Sym...

shellackophile.blogspot.com

(I'm pretty sure the LP is in the public domain now.)