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Post research here that casts doubt on ASR objectivism

JRS

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Certainly they don't *enhance* your listening skills, but I think they change the nature of your attention to the music.

Agree with you about the Dead, tho.
Exactly--which is what I argued--that it shapes the attention in such a way as to allow a preternatural focus on sound. That is extremely difficult to do under more ordinary circumstances. Anyhow this entire discussion like so many before it will change no ones mind.
 

raistlin65

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Nor is it a "social science." (I hate that term; there is nothing scientific about most "social sciences.")
That's hyperbole.

Social sciences do sometimes use the scientific method for some research. So there is something scientific about most social sciences.

Of course, social sciences often look for understanding of problems which do not have definitive answers. So I do get how some people in other areas are very uncomfortable with working with that kind of uncertainty.
 
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rdenney

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...

Of course, social sciences often look for understanding of problems which do not have definitive answers. ...
Which means controlled subjective testing, and a focus on statistical empirical evaluations, when doing the science part.

Rick "who also works in an engineering area dominated by irrational human behavior" Denney
 

raistlin65

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Which means controlled subjective testing, and a focus on statistical empirical evaluations, when doing the science part.

Rick "who also works in an engineering area dominated by irrational human behavior" Denney

Yep. And case studies and ethnography for helping to illuminate the problem. And to understand new directions for doing the science part of the research.

This type of research is where I think a lot of STEM incorrectly criticizes the social sciences. Case studies and ethnography are useful to the scientific process. They forget how often observation leads to the formation of a hypothesis in STEM. Or the revision of an existing one.
 

JRS

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That's hyperbole.

Social sciences do sometimes use the scientific method for some research. So there is something scientific about most social sciences.

Of course, social sciences often look for understanding of problems which do not have definitive answers. So I do get how some people in other areas are very uncomfortable with working with that kind of uncertainty.
I worship at the alter of mathematics, studied psychiatry and biophysics, and see them all as meaningful realms of inquiry. The questions in social science are more often intractable (such as what is consciousness), but every so often new questions lead to new insights. Who really gives a shit whether you need a calculator and pocket protector--science is about method, negative feedback, and an ever more refined model of the universe. This is true whether studying tribes in Papua New Guinea or working at the LHC. The elitism that unfortunately still lingers as the old joke about the psychologist who defers to the biologist who defers to the chemist who in turn defers to the physicist who in turn defers to the mathematician who in turn defers only to God.

I suspect if God were asked, s/he might reply, "I seldom invite math geeks to my parties for if 1 is not divisible by zero, what was my big bang?
 

audio2design

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Psychophysics is most definitely a branch of psychology, and psychoacoustics is a field within psychophysics. I would further claim scientists such as Weber, Fechner and Helmholtz were indeed practicing psychology--by applying physics to psychology in an effort to understand how reality is encoded by the brain. After all we are talking about perception which is a major focus of psychology. Helmholtz BTW made lasting contributions to both vision and audition. Similarly, Ernest Mach, the physicist of speed of sound fame also studied psychophyics and was the first to use the term, gestalt, which is one term that thankfully the fuzzy reality folk haven't absconded in defense of the inaudible--oh wait there is PRAT which comes damn close.

Psychophysics by definition is a branch of psychology, but that Wikipedia defines psycho-acoustics as psychophysics does not a mean that most define psycho-acoustics as psychology. As stated, most of the people I know in the field do not see themselves as anything related to psychology.

Since we are on Wikipedia,

"Psychoacoustics is an interdisciplinary field of many areas, including psychology, acoustics, electronic engineering, physics, biology, physiology, and computer science.[1]"

My experience is that psychology rarely, if ever plays into the professional aspects of psychoacoustics, with the exception of environmental controls, and on here when we talk about "subjective" audiophiles, and again borrowing from Wikipedia,

"psychoacoustics" also arises in discussions about cognitive psychology and the effects that personal expectations, prejudices, and predispositions may have on listeners' relative evaluations and comparisons of sonic aesthetics and acuity and on listeners' varying determinations about the relative qualities of various musical instruments and performers. The expression that one "hears what one wants (or expects) to hear" may pertain in such discussions."

W.R.T. environmental controls, as is pertains to venues, psychology does play a significant part. There is a direct correlation between the comfort of your seat and your perception of the quality of a performance. A rumble in your seat at the theatre makes you go "wow amazing sound" even though overall it may be meh!
 
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JRS

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Psychophysics by definition is a branch of psychology, but that Wikipedia defines psycho-acoustics as psychophysics does not a mean that most define psycho-acoustics as psychology. As stated, most of the people I know in the field do not see themselves as anything related to psychology.

Since we are on Wikipedia,



My experience is that psychology rarely, if ever plays into the professional aspects of psychoacoustics, with the exception of environmental controls, and on here when we talk about "subjective" audiophiles, and again borrowing from Wikipedia,



W.R.T. environmental controls, as is pertains to venues, psychology does play a significant part. There is a direct correlation between the comfort of your seat and your perception of the quality of a performance. A rumble in your seat at the theatre makes you go "wow amazing sound" even though overall it may be meh!
I think that is what I said. That's it is interdisciplinary, and ultimately concerned with peoples satisfaction--in the case of psychoacoustics, I would suspect a pleasant mix of venue and stage, FR, intelligibility, standing waves and the like. That you see yourself functioning in a more technical manner is fine--it's much like the difference between science and engineering. So perhaps we describe it as applied physics using psychological principles. Either way, I have no dog in this hunt except insofar as we are having a discussion in a thread about whether perceived psychological events have a measureable underpinning, and to remove psychology seems a bit of a stretch, even if one views acoustics purely in terms of applied physics. But physics uninformed by psychological experiments will only get you so far. They are complimentary, not antagonistic.

At the risk of repetition--psychology is as much about perception of sound as some therapist asking "tell me how did that make you feel?" I think people are trying to pigeonhole Psychology into something it is more than--that being things like personality issues, child behavioral problems and couples therapy--that is clinical psychology, a sizable chunk, but still only a chunk of a much larger subject.
 

audio2design

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I think that is what I said. That's it is interdisciplinary, and ultimately concerned with peoples satisfaction--i

Satisfaction is just aspect of psycho-acoustics.

The psychology aspect of psychoacoustics would be akin to why people perceive a difference sited testing, but not blind. A perceptual encoder, still considered under the framework of psycho-acoustics, is much more related to neuro-biology than it is to psychology. Putting psycho-acoustics under psycho-physics is really just a need for some to label, often related from what I could tell w.r.t. where research dollars get assigned. Did I even mention I don't miss academia at all?
 

JRS

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Satisfaction is just aspect of psycho-acoustics.

The psychology aspect of psychoacoustics would be akin to why people perceive a difference sited testing, but not blind. A perceptual encoder, still considered under the framework of psycho-acoustics, is much more related to neuro-biology than it is to psychology. Putting psycho-acoustics under psycho-physics is really just a need for some to label, often related from what I could tell w.r.t. where research dollars get assigned. Did I even mention I don't miss academia at all?
Perhaps and I confess to being an old school academic myself, and likely more of a lumper than splitter--so neurobiology (which is what I studied at the membrane level)--I suspect at this point neuroscience is it's own discipline--part biology, part psychology with contributions from computer science, physics, math, etc. There are an awful lot of neuroscientists running around these days, and I wonder what is you do? No quibbles with your opening statement whatsoever. So anyhow...I made a somewhat serious proposal hear earlier and will e calling for volunteers sometime in the future, should my preliminary research bear fruit.
 

audio2design

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@BluesDaddy said: "...If concrete reality is immaterial to perceptual experience, then why not simply take hallucinogens whenever listening to music?...."

Actually, my opinion that if there are any audible effects between gear that measures well, this may be one window which affords the possibility of capturing that in dbl blind testing. One thing that strikes me about psychedelic compounds is there ability to enhance hearing (whether this is via increased resolution or attention, I can't say--I suspect it's on the processing end as the transduction on the business end is a) mechanical and b) involves potassium channels that aren't influenced by serotonergic substances, so it most likely is due to the increased processing power liberated by diverting the neural resources normally devoted to the "default mode network". Another intriguing aspect of the experience with possible relevance is the phenomenon of subjective time dilation which in the extreme can cause seconds to become minutes. I know of no other substances which "enhance" hearing. Granted this is of little practical value, apart from providing some evidence that sub-threshold differences become audible under extraordinary conditions. And quite obviously should be tested using material from the Grateful Dead.

We could probably start with something a little less intense, like Ritalin :)
 

Robin L

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IMMHO the only effect psychedelics has on hearing is making one believe the mediocre crap to which they are listening is transcendentally high art. Hence the relationship between the Grateful Dead and psychedelics. ;)
I beg to differ [now ostentatiously listening to Svaitoslav Richter pounding out Bach's Great 48].

Let us not forget that Bear* is responsible for lashing together the first really good sound PA suitable for really big rooms.

And who's to say that Jerry drifting into some quasi-celestial space ain't "High Art", anyway?

*Give credit where credit is overdue to John Curl, who had figured out circuit design for the "Wall of Sound", and got fired by Owsley when Owsley plugged in something backwards, blowing up an amp in the process.
 

Sal1950

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Don't know that I would refer to sound heard while using psychedelics as enhanced, more like a distortion.
Like some of the effects added to music like Strawberry Fields, a phasey reverb type of thing.
 

Martin

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Don't know that I would refer to sound heard while using psychedelics as enhanced, more like a distortion.
Like some of the effects added to music like Strawberry Fields, a phasey reverb type of thing.

I used to love sitting between the speakers and cranking ELP's Brain Salad Surgery... especially the end of Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression.
 

JRS

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I used to love sitting between the speakers and cranking ELP's Brain Salad Surgery... especially the end of Karn Evil 9 3rd Impression.
Well, there is a point when the distortion of the tympanic mem-brain comes into play, that along with the contraction of the tensor tympani and stapedius muscles, and enhanced bone conduction all add and can obscure the finer points of music reproduction. So I suspect that old saw about set and setting (particularly of the volume) comes into play. I'm also assuming that the visual overload of everything melting into kaleidoscopic symphonies of transcendent brilliance are also not a distraction. So this will have to be carefully controlled. I have tried this by myself, but it turns out that changing several sets of cables can be a greater challenge than even deciding what to play next.
 

sq225917

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What a crazy idea. Do you honestly think the scientific method via numerate analysis isn't the basis of most social science? Cos it is.

They don't just pull ideas out of a hat you know. Clinical psychology for example, tried and tested methodologies based on proposing, testing, validating a hypothesis. It couldn't be more scientific if it had a beard, lasers and a lab coat.
 

egellings

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Social studies rely a lot on statistical analysis of group behavior, so I could see how that would be a legitimate science. Scientific investigative techniques are being used to answer a sociological question.
 

Sal1950

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I remember high school social studies classes.
What a boring bunch of BS I found the majority of it. :facepalm:
 
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