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Objectivists vs. Subjectivists - Who's right?

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Sal1950

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I'm not sure. My dad was never much of a fighter. He might not be able to beat up a subjectivist dad... especially now that he's been dead and cremated for nearly 20 years
What's your poor deceased father have to do with any of this?
Poor guy, 20 years in the soil and the son is still dragging him into his battles. LOL

Gentlemen, lets please all remain civil. ;)
 

mhardy6647

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There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind ... the only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed.
I think that Sir Duke meant a different kind of sounds good than - perhaps - do some of the contributors to this thread. ;)

FWIW I found the quotation in a book called The Duke Ellington Reader, edited by Mark Tucker (Oxford Univeristy Press, 1993), pg. 326.
I believe it appeared originally in a magazine article, but I am struggling to find the citation.
 

Holmz

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audiofilet

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I wasn't replying to a post of yours. :facepalm:
What? OK it's fine, I'll allow this pullout, because you just embarrassed yourself. I've been observing your posts in here and noticed that you behave like this with everyone else too.

People who constantly have to assert how much smarter and more knowledgeable they are than everyone else, usually are quite the opposite.

No need for this super confrontational and hostile attitude.
 

BDWoody

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krabapple

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What? OK it's fine, I'll allow this pullout, because you just embarrassed yourself. I've been observing your posts in here and noticed that you behave like this with everyone else too.

People who constantly have to assert how much smarter and more knowledgeable they are than everyone else, usually are quite the opposite.


My post about ignorance of mastering was responding to examples posted by Don56 -- not you. I would have thought that was clear from the start...and if not, certainly from my first reply about it to you.

Horse, water....
 
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Phorize

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Subjective-vs-Objective-1.jpg


FLAC vs AAC
Lossless vs Lossy
Joshua vs Zeos
Current Science vs. Experience & Intuitive Perception
Hard testing vs. Acute Audiophile Senses

There are many topics that divide these two groups.

It is my understanding that at the core of it all, the issue lies with one group choosing to approach, interpret and assert claims about audio that the other considers unscientific.

I guess the real question is, how far should we allow graphs, measurements and hard science to dictate the listening experience and how much merit should be attributed to the subjective perception of the individual i.e audiophile?
My rule of thumb is to only buy electronics with a SINAD that is higher than the IQ of the average IC rolling enthusiast, which obviously gives me plenty of scope:p
 

BDWoody

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Killingbeans

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What's your poor deceased father have to do with any of this?

You can't be involved in a my-dad-can-beat-up-your-dad type of thread (my way of saying that I think the title of this tread is stupid... no offence audiofilet) without a dad. And mine was a die hard objectivist who would have absolutely loved ASR!

The other day I saw a clip with the Danish folk singer Johnny Madsen (not my cup of tea) saying: "When I die, I want my ashes spread over Bilka (the Danish equivalent of Walmart). That way my son will come visit me twice a week." My dad would have thought that was funny as hell.

Morbid humor is a badge of honor in my family, but I absolute understand that it doesn't always fly well on the internet. So, sorry if it seems disrespectful :)

Poor guy, 20 years in the soil and the son is still dragging him into his battles. LOL

Ain't I a stinker? :D
 
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Hugo9000

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Pardon, was 'watering around the wrong way" a common diss at your school? It's new to me.
Perhaps a poor translation for an idiomatic expression that would best be rendered in English as "pissing into the wind" or something? Since there is the idiom "making water" for urinating, who knows? LOL
 

sq225917

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The objectivist is interested in provable measurements, the subjectivist in the totality of their personal experience.

Neither is more correct than the other.

the problems arise when a subjectivist thinks their opinion is fact, and the objectivist thinks that measurements correlate to a subjectivists impression of better.
 

spiritofjerry

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My mantra: if it sounds good to me, I enjoy it. I don't need graphs or measurements OR some snake oil to inform what sounds good to me -- I was born with two ears, imperfect instruments in their own right. Do I like buying gear that measures well? Yes. Do I care about it much if it sounds good to me, even if it measures like doo-doo? No. I just don't have the time on this earth to obsess over everything. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. Fortunately, most gear I've listened to sounds good (and some of that gear I've found later on measures poorly, but I don't care).
 

JSmith

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Leveraging the psychoacoustic fact of auditory masking doesn't portend that listeners will prefer mp3.
That wasn't my point... I can see how you thought that though as the two subjects became interrelated and I should have quoted the whole post I was responding to, meaning the MP3 codec, how it functions or sounds has nothing to do with any harmonic distortion in a tube amp.

What were your results? When I did such a comparison more often than not I picked the MP3 incorrectly thinking it was the FLAC. "High-res" audio can be quite the scam at times. ;)



JSmith
 

audio2design

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My mantra: if it sounds good to me, I enjoy it. I don't need graphs or measurements OR some snake oil to inform what sounds good to me -- I was born with two ears, imperfect instruments in their own right. Do I like buying gear that measures well? Yes. Do I care about it much if it sounds good to me, even if it measures like doo-doo? No. I just don't have the time on this earth to obsess over everything. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. Fortunately, most gear I've listened to sounds good (and some of that gear I've found later on measures poorly, but I don't care).

Spend enough time at this and if it measures poorly, but sounds good (at that moment), then you first check your instruments, then you check your measurement setup, and then you start pulling out a wider range of music, ones that you know will exercise the anomaly a bit better. Suddenly things don't sound so good any more. You can get acclimatized to bad sound, but you can reprogram yourself. Once done, it is harder to go back.
 

_thelaughingman

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My objectivitist side of brain that is very analytical and only see facts constantly battles the subjectivist half of the brain and i tend to keep them happy by talking to each and placating each side with whatever sounds they like best.
 

spiritofjerry

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Spend enough time at this and if it measures poorly, but sounds good (at that moment), then you first check your instruments, then you check your measurement setup, and then you start pulling out a wider range of music, ones that you know will exercise the anomaly a bit better. Suddenly things don't sound so good any more. You can get acclimatized to bad sound, but you can reprogram yourself. Once done, it is harder to go back.
All that sounds like a faff, really. I don't have the time or patience to go about listening for microdetails to determine what's good. That's why I come here, takes the guesswork and faffing about out of the equation. Even then, I love some gear that I know measures poorly, and I still can't hear a difference.
 
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audiofilet

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My mantra: if it sounds good to me, I enjoy it. I don't need graphs or measurements OR some snake oil to inform what sounds good to me -- I was born with two ears, imperfect instruments in their own right. Do I like buying gear that measures well? Yes. Do I care about it much if it sounds good to me, even if it measures like doo-doo? No. I just don't have the time on this earth to obsess over everything. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. Fortunately, most gear I've listened to sounds good (and some of that gear I've found later on measures poorly, but I don't care).
Agreed. Graphs and accurate measurements are superior when comparing or analyzing data, but what it ultimately comes down to in terms of the actual listening experience, is your personal preference and taste.
 

Chrispy

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All that sounds like a faff, really. I don't have the time or patience to go about listening for microdetails to determine what's good. That's why I come here, takes the guesswork and faffing about out of the equation. Even then, I love some gear that I know measures poorly, and I still can't hear a difference.
What is a faff?
 
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