Genelec 8361A vs 8351B

[HooStat]

FWIW I find the Neumann KH310’s to be more close to on par with the 8351B than any of the two-ways from either Genelec or Neumann.

I am starting to think that the Neumann KH310s are one of the best values in audio.

I think I know the answer to this, but based on your listening to date, and knowing what you know now, would you have recommended the 8361 over the 8351 to yourself as you were making that original decision?

 

[echopraxia]

I am starting to think that the Neumann KH310s are one of the best values in audio.

I think I know the answer to this, but based on your listening to date, and knowing what you know now, would you have recommended the 8361 over the 8351 to yourself as you were making that original decision?

I agree. It also makes me super curious about the Neumann KH420 still… I am still debating whether I am ready to go all-in in Genelec vs using that budget to buy KH420’s for another room and so I can compare subjectively to the 8361A (though such a comparison would of course be done in the same room)

Regarding whether I would recommend the 8351B or 8361A to myself back when I initially contemplated between the 8351B, 8361A, and KH420 — that’s a really good question, and I’m still thinking about what my answer would be I think it mostly comes down to size and cost, and whether the W371A is an option for the future.

 

[richard12511]

Regarding whether I would recommend the 8351B or 8361A to myself back when I initially contemplated between the 8351B, 8361A, and KH420 — that’s a really good question, and I’m still thinking about what my answer would be I think it mostly comes down to size and cost, and whether the W371A is an option for the future.

Something I've thought about too. I actually think it comes down to the mode you plan to use with the W371. If you're going to use the complimentary mode, I think the the 8361 works best. The goal of the complimentary mode is to use the woofers that are not seeing nulls to deliver bass to the listening position. It relies on the woofers being separated in physical space so that they are seeing different nulls/peaks. The more spread out the better. The 8361 in vertical orientation has two advantages here:

1. The woofers are spread out over a taller distance (5'7" vs 5'1")
2. 4 10" woofers vs 2 10" and 2 8" woofers. The algorithm has to balance between both optimal location and actual capability between the 2 woofer sizes for the smaller 8351.

For the directive modes, I like the 8351 in horizontal orientation the most. 8351 has:

1. Baffle width matches almost perfectly(8351 horizontal vs W371)
2. Off axis radiation is smoother(though I'm very skeptical of the audibility of this)

8361 still has some advantage, as it should have slightly more output, but that will be heavily minimized due to the 300Hz crossover. 8361 (imo) has more of advantage in complimentary mode than the 8351 has in directive mode.

The choice of W371 modes depends on usage. The complimentary mode is (imo) best for those with a 2.0 system, as it tries to approximate the multisub bass solution. If one already has multi-sub, I would think the modes that extend directivity down to 50Hz would be best.

 

[Frgirard]

I am starting to think that the Neumann KH310s are one of the best values in audio.

I think I know the answer to this, but based on your listening to date, and knowing what you know now, would you have recommended the 8361 over the 8351 to yourself as you were making that original decision?

The KH310 like all free standing speaker with a woofer far from the floor is the generation of floor cancelation.
You will never have a good bass reproduction without one or two sub.

In studio, a console block the floor cancelation.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The KH310 like all free standing speaker with a woofer far from the floor is the generation of floor cancelation.
You will never have a good bass reproduction without one or two sub.

In studio, a console block the floor cancelation.

I always thinked about that console do more bad things in studio rather than goods things.. xD, the consoles are always huge

 

[aac]

Well the good thing is we don’t have to guess, since Sound & Recording has measured all three of these!

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In terms of SPL, they’re all really amazing, though in slightly different ways. The Focal has the most deep bass power, while the Genelec and Neumann have more midbass power (which is actually more important if you combine with subwoofers). So purely in terms of SPL I would give 1st place to the Neumann KH420, since not only are the midbass 100-200hz the strongest (though not hugely more than the Genelec 8361A), but it also maintains much higher SPL through the mids and highs than anything else.

Lastly, looking at the off-axis performance of the Focal Trio 11be, it’s not nearly as exceptional as the Genelec or the Neumann. So I actually would not consider the Focal Trio to be in the same league as the Genelec and Neumann (which are pretty much in a class or their own) purely in terms of sound quality.

Indeed I do find the Genelec 8361A to be most impressive of all these, as it offers an incredible performance and features (DSP, all digital, etc) in a relatively small package (though 70lbs per speaker isn’t “small” by any means). However, I am still very curious about the Neumann KH420, since the measurements we do have (which aren’t super high resolution) are so good that I really have no idea whether the 8361A or KH420 would be more likely to win in a blind shootout.

Focal trio is a two-way with a subwoofer rather than "normal" 3 way.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Focal trio is a two-way with a subwoofer rather than "normal" 3 way.

Why is that?

 

[aac]

Why is that?

So you can switch between "2way" and "3way" modes. Maybe people in studios appreciate this feature

 

[Frgirard]

Focal trio is a two-way with a subwoofer rather than "normal" 3 way.

The crossover frequencies are 280 Hz for the LF/MF, and 2.4 kHz for the MF/HF. The trio 11 is not a subwoofer with a two way.

 

[Pearljam5000]

So you can switch between "2way" and "3way" modes. Maybe people in studios appreciate this feature

You can use it as a 2-way and disconnect the woofer for studio work to mimic the Yamaha Ns10 or something similar but it doesn't make it a 2-way with a sub

 

[Frgirard]

You can use it as a 2-way and disconnect the woofer for studio work to mimic the Yamaha Ns10 or something similar but it doesn't make it a 2-way with a sub

the SM9 have the same feature.

 

[aac]

You can use it as a 2-way and disconnect the woofer for studio work to mimic the Yamaha Ns10 or something similar but it doesn't make it a 2-way with a sub

Even focal calls it a subwoofer

Trio11 Be - Nearfield & Midfield monitoring loudspeaker

Trio11 Be, a monitor delivering a high SPL (118dB at 1m) and offering a great versatibility of use and installation configurations in nearfield AND midfield applications

www.focal.com

"2 way" part can play down to 80 hz flat and even has it's own port. Certainly not ns 10.
It's a tweeter-woofer-subwoofer rather than tweeter - Mid - woofer.

 

[daftcombo]

It depends what they’re implying. If they’re implying that there are better speakers out there for mid-field listening, just because coaxials are exceptional for near-field listening, then that is fundamentally flawed logic. Genelec Ones are arguably the best speakers in the world in almost every dimension, as long as you prefer the medium-wide beam width. (I would argue that Revel and others with ultra-wide beams are better for some kinds of stereo music.) Just because they’re exceptional in near-field in ways non-coaxials can never hope to compete, doesn’t mean they’re not exceptional in mid-field and beyond too

It’s true that coaxial speakers have unique advantages, and one of them is that they sound just as good no matter how far you are from the speaker, or whether or not your ear is aligned with the tweeter height. The latter part has other significant advantages in mid-field listening. It alleviates having to stress out about correct tweeter vs listening position height. It means you can lie down on a couch and listen to music, without a modified spectral balance. It means the floor and ceiling reflections will better match the on-axis sound, leading to better sound quality overall in most rooms at any listening distance.

So Genelec Ones are exceptional in every way, at all distances. Just because most other speakers fall apart at closer listening distances doesn’t mean other speakers are better than Genelec Ones at far distances. The Genelec Ones are uniquely good coaxials because they have all the advantages of coaxials and pretty much none of the disadvantages, due to the way Genelec designed them.

If you learn how to read the Klippel off-axis polar plots, it’ll be pretty obvious where this difference comes from and what it means.

Suppose I want to put Genelec speakers in a 20m² living room, with 3m listening distance. Is it worth getting the Ones (8351B for instance) rather than less expensive 8350A? That's another way to ask the question.

 

[HooStat]

@echopraxia Have you measured the in-room response with the 8361 yet? Just curious how low they go in a "real" room.

 

[Pearljam5000]

@echopraxia Have you measured the in-room response with the 8361 yet? Just curious how low they go in a "real" room.

From another thread

 

[aac]

@echopraxia If you listen to your genelecs nearfield (say 1 m or less) do they sound like they are far away or do they play like musicians are really close to you?

 

[Tonygeno]

From another thread
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From another thread
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So, interestingly enough, GLM is showing output down to 30hz and then a drop off, whereas Dirac is showing output down to 24. I will need to look into this and figure out what's going on. I seem to prefer GLM for listening. When I turn on Dirac, the sound becomes unfocused and I'm not sure why this is. I may need to rerun measurements. Since I have two HSU subs, I cannot use GLM with the subs and am considering getting a Genelec sub, but damn, are they expensive!

 

[HooStat]

So, interestingly enough, GLM is showing output down to 30hz and then a drop off, whereas Dirac is showing output down to 24. I will need to look into this and figure out what's going on. I seem to prefer GLM for listening. When I turn on Dirac, the sound becomes unfocused and I'm not sure why this is. I may need to rerun measurements. Since I have two HSU subs, I cannot use GLM with the subs and am considering getting a Genelec sub, but damn, are they expensive!

True, but if you run the Genelec full range and cross the subs at something like 40 Hz, it might be possible to dial them in properly. I am not an expert on the process, but I would try that first. I know people like to use higher crossovers to improve the clarity of mid-range in a two way. But with this speaker being virtually full range at high volume, I am guessing it should be fine to simply supplement the existing bass.

 

[echopraxia]

@echopraxia If you listen to your genelecs nearfield (say 1 m or less) do they sound like they are far away or do they play like musicians are really close to you?

I just tried listening with my head almost in the exact center between the two speakers (about 1 meter from each, and about 60 degrees off-axis).

They sounded almost exactly the same, but actually with wider soundstage and more precise imaging at the same time! They did not sound closer; if anything, the music sounded farther out and more spacious all around me.

I assume this spaciousness is simply because when my head is between both speakers, they appear much farther apart relative to my distance from their center point. And because my current room and speaker placement (due to furniture and room size constraints) are far from optimal, the clarity increases as I’m closer to the speakers since the direct sound reaches my ears louder and sooner than the rear wall reflections.

P.S. I also tested much more extreme closeness. Under 6” distance it definitely doesn’t sound right, as if the bass is clearly not integrated yet. At 12” distance, it sounds surprisingly good, but not ideal. At 2-3 feet, it sounds so transparent that if I was blindfolded in an unknown room I very likely would be completely unable to tell you whether they were 2 or 20 feet away.

TLDR; I wouldn’t recommend them as giant headphones strapped to your ears, but these would actually make incredible full range desktop/office speakers as long as your head is at least 2 feet away from each

 

[echopraxia]

@echopraxia Have you measured the in-room response with the 8361 yet? Just curious how low they go in a "real" room.

Mine goes down to about 26hz before dropping off rapidly (so that at 20hz it’s down -10db). It depends a great deal on positioning and room acoustics, or course.

If you want true full-range with effectively no SPL limit in big rooms, you’ll want subwoofers. But for a desktop near field setup (with the speakers placed very near to the rear wall), you probably could get them flat almost down to 20hz with plenty of headroom for comfortable listening SPLs.