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phoenixsong

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If you disable "enhancements" doesn't that mean that EqualiserAPO has no effect?, in which case what's the point in installing & running it? To turn off active filters in Equaliser APO you click the "Standby" looking buttons that are to the left of each filter or configuration file:
View attachment 155322
The black filled-in standby buttons are meaning it's turned off. The white filled-in standby buttons are meaning it's turned on.
I actually installed it to bypass the Windows APO issues mentioned in the first post of this thread. Might play around with EQ in the near future, just not now
 

bennetng

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Looked at "Similar threads" below I found another relevant thread:
So basically people need to understand what individual software players do before relating everything to Windows mixer.
 

Robbo99999

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I actually installed it to bypass the Windows APO issues mentioned in the first post of this thread. Might play around with EQ in the near future, just not now
Oh, ok, I have read first post of this thread a while back but not too familiar with the tackled issues, I think I remember concluding that it was unnecessary. But certainly re EqualiserAPO, it's a great program to use for EQ so I can certainly recommend it for that usage scenario.
 

elole

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I wasn't too satisfied with the audio quality even with windows apo disabled, that -4db and doing the rest of the steps. It sounded nowhere close to using Foobar and wasapi. Only days after did I spot an ASUS ICEsound APO service that was still running in my task manager. Disabling it immediately changed the sound while my music was playing. It sounds great now with spotify, youtube, whatnot

However, I think I still prefer just routing everything to VBAudio virtual cable
 
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elole

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If I'm using VBAudio virtual cable though, is it able to bypass issues such as CAudioLimiter and windows hidden APOs?
 

Atanasi

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If I'm using VBAudio virtual cable though, is it able to bypass issues such as CAudioLimiter and windows hidden APOs?
VBAudio virtual cables are attached to the Windows audio stack. So if the application uses WASAPI shared mode, the sound would pass through CAudioLimiter. Exclusive mode would bypass that. They wouldn't probably have any hidden APOs of their own.
 

elole

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VBAudio virtual cables are attached to the Windows audio stack. So if the application uses WASAPI shared mode, the sound would pass through CAudioLimiter. Exclusive mode would bypass that. They wouldn't probably have any hidden APOs of their own.
Hmm, so to clarify if I simply use Spotify/Youtube > VB cable (checked exclusive mode) > topping dac (checked exclusive mode), while all having the same sample rate, I should be able to avoid all the mentioned issues?
 

Atanasi

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Hmm, so to clarify if I simply use Spotify/Youtube > VB cable (checked exclusive mode) > topping dac (checked exclusive mode), while all having the same sample rate, I should be able to avoid all the mentioned issues?
I suppose it would work. What software do you use recording from the virtual cable and playing back to the DAC?
 

elole

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I suppose it would work. What software do you use recording from the virtual cable and playing back to the DAC?
I just put the windows sound setting's output device as VBAudio Hi-fi cable input. I suppose that goes to directly to VBAudio ASIO bridge, then to the dac
 

MKreroo

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Well I stumbled upon this massive thread of which I understand probably none of what is presented, so excuse my limited understanding.

From what I have gathered, it seems that:
  • 96Khz sampling rate set in Win is the better option in digital aspect if sources are at more than one sample rate (say 44.1 YT and 48 music)
  • attenuation of some value (so many, -0.2, -4, -6, etc) is needed before going into the DAC to avoid the CAudioLimit thing (though appears to be a rather edge case?)
  • non-standard APOs should be disabled via EAPO (also appears to be an edge case, but I probably need to worry about with all those gamery audio none-sense my MOBO has)
  • to be honest I have no idea, all of these are probably not audible for me anyway but since I am already here, why not
Now to my personal use-case:
MusicBee (MB) -> Qudelix 5K -> cans
files are at sampling rate of 44.1/48/88.2/96, with majority being 44.1

Since the 5k has EQ avaliable with-in, I'm not particularly worry about that, but the sample rate.
I assume that 88.2khz is the optimal since it matches the 88.2s and is an integer multiple of 44.1 (if I remember anything from that signal processing intro course I took, this is preferred?), and that only the 48/96s are problem. I assume (a baseless one though) that sampling a 48 at 88.2 is fine much like sampling a 44.1 at 96 as shown in OP, and since there are only a few 96khz files I don't really have big concern about them.

MB also has option to tag ReplayGain values to the files, which I have done as of now, set at 0dB. Would it be correct to assume that with the tag, no additional attenuation is needed to avoid the problems? If so how would I find the max ReplayGain value such that least amplification is needed to keep the same volume level (distortion from extra amplification should be much more than the ones from digital here I believe) while also avoiding the digital "problems"

Regardless I appreciate the time taken to read that wall of text above, and man I really should've asked more questions in that signal processing course
 

Offler

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Well I stumbled upon this massive thread of which I understand probably none of what is presented, so excuse my limited understanding.

From what I have gathered, it seems that:
  • 96Khz sampling rate set in Win is the better option in digital aspect if sources are at more than one sample rate (say 44.1 YT and 48 music)
  • attenuation of some value (so many, -0.2, -4, -6, etc) is needed before going into the DAC to avoid the CAudioLimit thing (though appears to be a rather edge case?)
  • non-standard APOs should be disabled via EAPO (also appears to be an edge case, but I probably need to worry about with all those gamery audio none-sense my MOBO has)
  • to be honest I have no idea, all of these are probably not audible for me anyway but since I am already here, why not
I personally use:

Windows default Output (also called Shared Mode) is set to:
- 44.1KHz in Windows shared mode, because most of Windows sound (gaming) is in CD quality and re-sampling in Windows has poor quality.
- 24bit all the time (for me limit, if you can use 32, do so). 16bit content will be played without any loss in quality and 24bit content (mostly blurays). If the measurements I read about are correct, 24bit output should allow better SNR.
- Tweak in EAPO with -0.14, -4 or -6 is to avoid unnecessary distortion caused by windows.

Media players (MPC, FOOBAR2000 others) are set to WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO
- 48KHz for DVD and BD playback, 24bit
- 44.1KHz for CD audio
Both WASAPI Exclusive and ASIO are bypassing all APOs and CAudio limiter as well and content can be bypassed to DAC without any software filtering (that includes EAPO tweak).
 

dasdoing

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Set Windows sample rate to the same rate as the native file, or to 96 kHz if you play back high resolution material

I don't have high resolution material and I wonder if I should go higher than 48kHz. I have convolution in the EQAPO chain so I need sample rate to be fixed
 

Robbo99999

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I personally use:

Windows default Output (also called Shared Mode) is set to:
- 44.1KHz in Windows shared mode, because most of Windows sound (gaming) is in CD quality and re-sampling in Windows has poor quality.
- 24bit all the time (for me limit, if you can use 32, do so). 16bit content will be played without any loss in quality and 24bit content (mostly blurays). If the measurements I read about are correct, 24bit output should allow better SNR.
- Tweak in EAPO with -0.14, -4 or -6 is to avoid unnecessary distortion caused by windows.

Media players (MPC, FOOBAR2000 others) are set to WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO
- 48KHz for DVD and BD playback, 24bit
- 44.1KHz for CD audio
Both WASAPI Exclusive and ASIO are bypassing all APOs and CAudio limiter as well and content can be bypassed to DAC without any software filtering (that includes EAPO tweak).
Hi, you mention gaming is mostly 44.1kHz, however a couple of years ago when I researched this I came to the conclusion that gaming uses 48kHz. I use 48kHz for gamine & flip it to 44.1kHz for music listening. Can you remember any links that prove 44.1kHz for gaming content? I remember it being a pretty obscure topic to research, I don't remember finding a whole load of info on the topic.
 

Offler

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Hi, you mention gaming is mostly 44.1kHz, however a couple of years ago when I researched this I came to the conclusion that gaming uses 48kHz. I use 48kHz for gamine & flip it to 44.1kHz for music listening. Can you remember any links that prove 44.1kHz for gaming content? I remember it being a pretty obscure topic to research, I don't remember finding a whole load of info on the topic.
Few reasons:
1. Soundblasters LIVE by Creative used 48KHz internal clock and it was perceived as a terrible move.
All other cards at the time supported 44.1KHz, 22.050Hz, 11.025Hz... and they were targetting CD Audio quality because CDs just made it as a PC peripherals with highest amount of content at that time. MP3 started to became a thing and again 44,1KHz was a target... This is ofc history from 1998, but EAX 1.0 and 2.0 were expected to become as important as were graphical Shader Engines and back in that time, audio accelerator made similar sense as 3d accelerator.

So, if an engine used EAX effects it allowed higher CPU performance by about 10 percent, however at cost of intermodulation distortion - because majority of older titles were developed with CD Quality audio in mind as most older soundcards supported. Yet Creative was targeting different market with 5.1 support - DVDs and surround sound.

Also a reason why was so popular to use analog CD Audio passthrough instead on PCs digital processing with these cards.

But you actually made me think about the whole story a bit. This is the list of games with EAX support:

It would make sense if those are sampled in 48KHz, however if you would attempt to play that sound on a more common soundcards from that era, you would simply get a message that the format is not supported. Game developers were quite furious about that.

With Audigy series it was the first time they implemented options of using different sample rates (44.1, 48 and 96) and higher bitrates (16 and 24), yet that was all still on Windows XP. So the initial outrage was no longer a problem and Audigy offered a decent sound effects, with more common sample rate.

The problem was that no other audio card manufacturer went into DirectSound as it was envisioned by Creative and adopted by Microsoft. Later as CPU performance increased, there were software filters with similar capabilities, but without any need for specific hardware or DirectSound. Then Vista happenned, DirectSound was mostly scrapped, and Windows got the audiostack as we know it now. So up to 2006-2008 there was not much devices


2. I was involved in a game development back in 2006
All the sound was mastered for CD quality. But again quite a history since then. There was a strong opinion that 44,1KHz 16bit is enough.

Since then I have been checking around overclock and gaming forums and general consensus was that games are still using 44.1 16bit, however i doubt anyone checked...

So I just ran few audiofiles headers through my media players, and even when they failed to render, it seems Nier Automata is indeed using 48KHz.
 
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Robbo99999

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Few reasons:
1. Soundblasters LIVE by Creative used 48KHz internal clock and it was perceived as a terrible move.
All other cards at the time supported 44.1KHz, 22.050Hz, 11.025Hz... and they were targetting CD Audio quality because CDs just made it as a PC peripherals with highest amount of content at that time. MP3 started to became a thing and again 44,1KHz was a target... This is ofc history from 1998, but EAX 1.0 and 2.0 were expected to become as important as were graphical Shader Engines and back in that time, audio accelerator made similar sense as 3d accelerator.

So, if an engine used EAX effects it allowed higher CPU performance by about 10 percent, however at cost of intermodulation distortion - because majority of older titles were developed with CD Quality audio in mind as most older soundcards supported. Yet Creative was targeting different market with 5.1 support - DVDs and surround sound.

Also a reason why was so popular to use analog CD Audio passthrough instead on PCs digital processing with these cards.

But you actually made me think about the whole story a bit. This is the list of games with EAX support:

It would make sense if those are sampled in 48KHz, however if you would attempt to play that sound on a more common soundcards from that era, you would simply get a message that the format is not supported. Game developers were quite furious about that.

With Audigy series it was the first time they implemented options of using different sample rates (44.1, 48 and 96) and higher bitrates (16 and 24), yet that was all still on Windows XP. So the initial outrage was no longer a problem and Audigy offered a decent sound effects, with more common sample rate.

The problem was that no other audio card manufacturer went into DirectSound as it was envisioned by Creative and adopted by Microsoft. Later as CPU performance increased, there were software filters with similar capabilities, but without any need for specific hardware or DirectSound. Then Vista happenned, DirectSound was mostly scrapped, and Windows got the audiostack as we know it now. So up to 2006-2008 there was not much devices


2. I was involved in a game development back in 2006
All the sound was mastered for CD quality. But again quite a history since then. There was a strong opinion that 44,1KHz 16bit is enough.

Since then I have been checking around overclock and gaming forums and general consensus was that games are still using 44.1 16bit, however i doubt anyone checked...

So I just ran few audiofiles headers through my media players, and even when they failed to render, it seems Nier Automata is indeed using 48KHz.
Thanks for that reply. So the information you've researched is that games can be either 44.1kHz or 48kHz?

I did a quick search now, and people at the following link have found that games are sometimes produced in 44.1kHz and sometimes in 48kHz, but seemed 48kHz was the most common, a post from 2011 where he was able to work out if the game was 44.1kHz or 48kHz:
 

Offler

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Thanks for that reply. So the information you've researched is that games can be either 44.1kHz or 48kHz?

I did a quick search now, and people at the following link have found that games are sometimes produced in 44.1kHz and sometimes in 48kHz, but seemed 48kHz was the most common, a post from 2011 where he was able to work out if the game was 44.1kHz or 48kHz:
That unfortunately is not a good way how to find out.

Well... I simply looked into files of Nier Automata to find out its a Wave Format, then i ran it through Media Player Classic which failed to render with Pin info that its 8 channels, 48KHz with undetermined bitrate.

Unfortunately most games packs their files, so its near impossible to extract them.

There are two arguments why to play sound in bit-exact format:
1. Sound quality should be better
This is quite dubious claim, unless you have quality equipment. Reclocking does introduce some IMD but it cannot be perceived in most time.

2. System responsiveness (also called input lag) should be better.
Topic about input lag in PC gaming are the worst kind of snake oil, however this claim is technically true.

In both cases, benefits are small, but present.

And also unfortunately, in most cases game developers do not bother to provide information about audio output...

Edit:
44.1KHz
Starcraft II
Brutal Legend
Heroes 3 (obviously :D)

48KHz
Nier Automata
Skyrim Legendary Edition (at least Bethesda Logo)
Journey
Cyberpunk 2077 (OGG Opus, always sampled at 48KHz)

Undetermined:
Witcher 3
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
 
Last edited:

MKreroo

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I personally use:

Windows default Output (also called Shared Mode) is set to:
- 44.1KHz in Windows shared mode, because most of Windows sound (gaming) is in CD quality and re-sampling in Windows has poor quality.
- 24bit all the time (for me limit, if you can use 32, do so). 16bit content will be played without any loss in quality and 24bit content (mostly blurays). If the measurements I read about are correct, 24bit output should allow better SNR.
- Tweak in EAPO with -0.14, -4 or -6 is to avoid unnecessary distortion caused by windows.

Media players (MPC, FOOBAR2000 others) are set to WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO
- 48KHz for DVD and BD playback, 24bit
- 44.1KHz for CD audio
Both WASAPI Exclusive and ASIO are bypassing all APOs and CAudio limiter as well and content can be bypassed to DAC without any software filtering (that includes EAPO tweak).
thanks for the info
I stick with 24 bits as well since there isn't much harm doing so and it is my hardware limit (24/96)

It does seem that sticking to 44.1 (or it's multiple I suppose?) is better way to go since most of my audio stream outside the music library is 44.1

Regarding the tweak in EAPO, I was wondering if that reduce in volume (and which value should one use?), when compensated elsewhere down the chain like amp, which would result in higher noise at the end? Obiviously this depends on the individual amp used as well, but I was wondering as a general rule of thumb.
 

Robbo99999

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That unfortunately is not a good way how to find out.

Well... I simply looked into files of Nier Automata to find out its a Wave Format, then i ran it through Media Player Classic which failed to render with Pin info that its 8 channels, 48KHz with undetermined bitrate.

Unfortunately most games packs their files, so its near impossible to extract them.

There are two arguments why to play sound in bit-exact format:
1. Sound quality should be better
This is quite dubious claim, unless you have quality equipment. Reclocking does introduce some IMD but it cannot be perceived in most time.

2. System responsiveness (also called input lag) should be better.
Topic about input lag in PC gaming are the worst kind of snake oil, however this claim is technically true.

In both cases, benefits are small, but present.

And also unfortunately, in most cases game developers do not bother to provide information about audio output...

Edit:
44.1KHz
Starcraft II
Brutal Legend
Heroes 3 (obviously :D)

48KHz
Nier Automata
Skyrim Legendary Edition (at least Bethesda Logo)
Journey
Cyberpunk 2077 (OGG Opus, always sampled at 48KHz)

Undetermined:
Witcher 3
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Well I think I'm gonna stick with 48kHz for gaming.
 

Offler

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thanks for the info
I stick with 24 bits as well since there isn't much harm doing so and it is my hardware limit (24/96)

It does seem that sticking to 44.1 (or it's multiple I suppose?) is better way to go since most of my audio stream outside the music library is 44.1

Regarding the tweak in EAPO, I was wondering if that reduce in volume (and which value should one use?), when compensated elsewhere down the chain like amp, which would result in higher noise at the end? Obiviously this depends on the individual amp used as well, but I was wondering as a general rule of thumb.
I definitely retract my argument about 44.1KHz in gaming. There is some benefit when Default Output and sound file samplerate are matched, both in quality and game performance, but both are hard to notice. I dont see a reason for using multiples (88.2 and 96Khz) for listening standard content.

The EAPO tweak has to be applied on Preamp to work. I used software to measure my amplifier output to find out at which level the distortion introduced by Caudiolimiter - for single audio stream it was -0.14dB, for two audio streams it was -6.15dB. -4dB is a general recommendation.

Yes this has to be later compensated on AMP. If you use an amplifier or speakers which have low signal to noise ratio and hum as you increase volume, then this tweak is not for your system.

CaudioLimiter adds distortion of 0.1% to the original signal if it is too loud, but the amplifier and speakers have to be able to play the sound with lower distortion in the first place.
 

MKreroo

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I definitely retract my argument about 44.1KHz in gaming. There is some benefit when Default Output and sound file samplerate are matched, both in quality and game performance, but both are hard to notice. I dont see a reason for using multiples (88.2 and 96Khz) for listening standard content.

The EAPO tweak has to be applied on Preamp to work. I used software to measure my amplifier output to find out at which level the distortion introduced by Caudiolimiter - for single audio stream it was -0.14dB, for two audio streams it was -6.15dB. -4dB is a general recommendation.

Yes this has to be later compensated on AMP. If you use an amplifier or speakers which have low signal to noise ratio and hum as you increase volume, then this tweak is not for your system.

CaudioLimiter adds distortion of 0.1% to the original signal if it is too loud, but the amplifier and speakers have to be able to play the sound with lower distortion in the first place.
oh 88.2 is just so that I don't have to change every time while not have major effect since majority of my contents are 44.1kHz
and I don't plan on using exclusive mode (too inconvenient when switching to another audio stream)

for the distortion, it certainly seems that most amp nowadays are able to do that, not sure about speaker/headphones though
anyway, this overall does seem beneficial for my specific system/usage
 
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