Chord Hugo M Scaler - Stereophile Review (measurements also)

[mansr]

Its not -130dB based on Robs own APx555 scope (green): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-134#post-15968970

The passband level in that plot is -60 dB and the stopband level is -190 dB. That means the rejection is 130 dB.

 

[Jimbob54]

Its not -130dB based on Robs own APx555 scope (green): https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-134#post-15968970

The -130dB you see on the Stereophile graph is "Fig.2 Mark Levinson No.30.6, spectrum, 20kHz–30kHz, of 16-bit white noise sampled at 44.1kHz at –4dBFS (left channel blue, right cyan) and upsampled to 88.2kHz with M Scaler (left channel red, right magenta) (20dB/vertical div.). " Measured with a SYS2722.

That headfi post reads like the lead in to some convoluted spiel as to why he has to create a new expensive product line that magically only has an audible impact if you know it is in use.

 

[RustyGates]

The passband level in that plot is -60 dB and the stopband level is -190 dB. That means the rejection is 130 dB.

Right. Not sure what lead the wideband noise to sit at just -60dBFS for his test. Are you saying his filter won't bottom out to -190dBFS to - 200dbFS (or whatever the limits of the AP is) if the passband was at say -40dBFS? or higher? Any measurements of chip DAC brickwall filters?

 

[Robin L]

Right. Not sure what lead the wideband noise to sit at just -60dBFS for his test. Are you saying his filter won't bottom out to -190dBFS to - 200dbFS (or whatever the limits of the AP is) if the passband was at say -40dBFS? or higher? Any measurements of chip DAC brickwall filters?

Thermal noise. There's an inherent noise level in all electronics, so those numbers are purely theoretical. Furthermore, 130 db represents more than the absolute limit of our hearing. Like hi-rez and oversampling, the theoretical advantages are inaudible in practice.

 

[Human Bass]

So where are the actual measurements implied in the title?

 

[Jman]

New to this forum, I'm dissapointed with empty bashing posts, very sad.

I've both hqplayer and mscaler so I can freely choose.

If I'm forced to engage computerpower to get good sound, I'm not won, my cell phone cannot run hqp but it can steer my streamer perfectly into the mscaler. I value the versatility of dedicated units very much.

Hqp is cluncky, erratic on my Dell xps15. No joy. Waiting so long for it's filters to deliver, no joy either.

Bashing posts let me skip to here, so maybe it's already mentioned, if so sorry:

HQPlayer - Better Than a $5,000 Upscaler? - Audio Bacon

Intro Contents 1. Intro2. Music Player3. Direct Playback4. Optimal HQPlayer Settings5. The Battle6. Final ThoughtsCommentsI received many emails requesting a review of HQPlayer: A $260 piece of software that is potentially better than the $5,000 Chord Electronics Hugo M Scaler. I’m setting up a...

audiobacon.net

I second points brought up there, I'm glad to have mscaler, period.

 

[SIY]

I second points brought up there, I'm glad to have mscaler, period.

And they're glad to have your money.

 

[Jman]

And they're glad to have your money.

I liked your post as you are right and everybody is happy, are you wishing for another world perhaps? I support economy, even CEO's yacht builders jobs who all pay taxes to keep social security running.
Those unable to buy mscaler have HQplayer, everybody with happy ears, for once the sun shines for all, how wonderful.

What is the value of your post to repeat 100 times in one thread about cost, it degrades a forum.

 

[SIY]

I liked your post as you are right and everybody is happy, are you wishing for another world perhaps? I support economy, even CEO's yacht builders jobs who all pay taxes to keep social security running.
Those unable to buy mscaler have HQplayer, everybody with happy ears, for once the sun shines for all, how wonderful.

What is the value of your post to repeat 100 times in one thread about cost, it degrades a forum.

In the future, I will endeavor to have you or another designated shill check my posts for value before hitting the "Post Reply" button.

 

[Phorize]

In the future, I will endeavor to have you or another designated shill check my posts for value before hitting the "Post Reply" button.

@SIY that comment made my day, seriously I’m almost in tears.

 

[Jman]

In the future, I will endeavor to have you or another designated shill check my posts for value before hitting the "Post Reply" button.

I'm sorry for that, I only saw your 1 liner critics on my finances. I skipped the lot for a reason which I did mention. Thanks for motivating but the flow of shit-on-it-posts puts me off for spending time. Collateral damage, sort of.
With regards.

 

[BDWoody]

Those unable to buy mscaler have HQplayer, everybody with happy ears, for once the sun shines for all, how wonderful.

I would buy this if there was any indication that it did anything to improve the listening experience. So far, I don't believe there are any controlled tests by anyone to demonstrate that.

Claims are easy...actual evidence that it isn't just an excuse to drain more money from customers would be better.

 

[Human Bass]

WHERE ARE THE MEASUREMENTS IMPLIED IN THE TITLE?

Ahem

 

[RustyGates]

I would buy this if there was any indication that it did anything to improve the listening experience. So far, I don't believe there are any controlled tests by anyone to demonstrate that.

Claims are easy...actual evidence that it isn't just an excuse to drain more money from customers would be better.

Well, here is the problem. I did get myself a m-scaler in lock down the past year, paired with a TT2, and have done blind testing multiple times in the early days for the hell of it.

The scaler has four sample rate options which can be cycled by the press of one button.

1FS (LED Red) -> 2FS (LED Green) -> 4FS (LED Blue) -> 16FS (LED White) -> 1FS.... , 1FS being 44.1 or 48kHz

I then close my eyes and press the button multiple times to get to a random point (don't know what it is), then start cycling through at a press of a button, listening to the changes between each press.

Largest differences were going from Green to Blue (audible improvement) and White to Red (audible deterioration). You open your eyes and see what colour the button it, and you know what the previous setting was. It makes an appreciable difference to the TT2.

Another big difference is going from using the m-scaler often with the TT2 on full-up sampling mode, being accustom to the sound, and going back to the pass-through mode randomly in which I am going to say is somewhat of a shock.

If you're going to discount HQPlayer or M-scaler by saying upsampling is doing nothing to improve the sound, then maybe have counter evidence to show why because there is an audible difference as far as I'm concerned and there is enough theory material on it.

As for price, that literally isn't your problem to worry about.

 

[RustyGates]

WHERE ARE THE MEASUREMENTS IMPLIED IN THE TITLE?

Ahem

Its literally linked in the OP. https://www.stereophile.com/content...ler-upsampling-digital-processor-measurements.

 

[Human Bass]

Its literally linked in the OP. https://www.stereophile.com/content...ler-upsampling-digital-processor-measurements.

Thanks. When I first clicked for some reason couldn't see. Basically there is nothing there implying any audible difference. I see a very good dac, but nothing that justifies those magical impressions.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well, here is the problem. I did get myself a m-scaler in lock down the past year, paired with a TT2, and have done blind testing multiple times in the early days for the hell of it.

The scaler has four sample rate options which can be cycled by the press of one button.

1FS (LED Red) -> 2FS (LED Green) -> 4FS (LED Blue) -> 16FS (LED White) -> 1FS.... , 1FS being 44.1 or 48kHz

I then close my eyes and press the button multiple times to get to a random point (don't know what it is), then start cycling through at a press of a button, listening to the changes between each press.

Largest differences were going from Green to Blue (audible improvement) and White to Red (audible deterioration). You open your eyes and see what colour the button it, and you know what the previous setting was. It makes an appreciable difference to the TT2.

Another big difference is going from using the m-scaler often with the TT2 on full-up sampling mode, being accustom to the sound, and going back to the pass-through mode randomly in which I am going to say is somewhat of a shock.

If you're going to discount HQPlayer or M-scaler by saying upsampling is doing nothing to improve the sound, then maybe have counter evidence to show why because there is an audible difference as far as I'm concerned and there is enough theory material on it.

As for price, that literally isn't your problem to worry about.

You seem to have been following this throughout. Do you recall this ever being addressed? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...le-review-measurements-also.11868/post-371417

 

[BDWoody]

If you're going to discount HQPlayer or M-scaler by saying upsampling is doing nothing to improve the sound, then maybe have counter evidence to show why because there is an audible difference as far as I'm concerned and there is enough theory material on it.

I'm just saying there is nothing beyond anecdotal information to rely on. There is that inconvenient chasm between anecdote and evidence that hasn't been bridged yet. There is no reason to believe it improves anything audibly until that happens. Claims aren't evidence.

As for price, that literally isn't your problem to worry about.

Where did I say anything about price, and what makes you believe I'm worried?

 

[RustyGates]

You seem to have been following this throughout. Do you recall this ever being addressed? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...le-review-measurements-also.11868/post-371417

Yes, I've known there is a slight drop is signal level in pass through mode ever since I saw the Stereophile review was released. What I heard in terms of deterioration was not simply the signal being quieter.

The other test I could try is plugging a USB PC - > TT2 and another USB PC -> Mscaler -> TT2, have the TT2 on auto input mode, then switching the sound output device through windows. But this isn't blind, I can't do this blind. Also the switch won't be nearly as fast.

There is also going from green to blue, or red to blue with a double tap which is an appreciable improvement.

 

[solderdude]

A small (say < 0.5dB) increase in level is never perceived as louder but rather as 'fuller' sounding.
Why would the overall level be increased when 'on'.
Is that increasing of the overall volume level (digitally) ?