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Art Vandelay
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It's why you should view those kind of near field measurements as they are - near field measurements.
Averaged response in the vicinity of the listening position will tell you much more about how it's likely to sound, and yes, the dip in the presence region will definitely dominate.
My listening room has some treatments, including diffusers on the ceiling, which are very beneficial. If you're buying speakers in the price range of 800 series B&W's you're really wasting your money if the room isn't up to scratch. A bad listening environment is going to sound bad regardless of the speakers playing within.
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Thanks. Well, considering that this is in our family room, and room treatments will likely not pass WAF, you're giving me pause now. The room is fully carpeted and has window blinds and drapes, as well as a sectional sofa, so it is not really a "live" room.
atsmusic
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I am trying to figure out what people consider the house sound of B&W. One guy said thin and shrill but in my experience I almost heard the opposite. They sound "thick" to me lol. I guess just looking at the measurements what does that mean for the house sound? Like what will it sound like?
Bamyasi
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I call it "tszzz-booom" and it is a very popular type of tuning, especially amongst HT speaker brands. B&W can certainly be considered one of its founding fathers. Because of the "V" (or even "W") shape of such FR it can sound thin and thick at the same time, depending on the frequencies present in the recording.
Pearljam5000
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Like a house
Focal also has a house sound
Also Genelec and Neumann.
I guess it's a certain tonality you can recognize when you hear it.
Well the thing that gave me pause, upon hearing the D3 series at several audio shows, was what seemed like a super high frequency buzziness or "zing" to the sound. I do have tinnitus in my right ear and maybe my ears were playing tricks on me. But I don't think that was it. It happened with D3 speakers in more than one demo room. As to any mid range "suck out", I didn't notice that, but that was probably because the HF issue was waht I was thinking about. I will say, those hotel rooms have very low ceilings, so I don't know how much this zing would occur in a damped and larger room with a higher ceiling.
atsmusic
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all I really get from that is it is think and thick at the same time? I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense to me when trying to figure out what the house sound really is. No offense to you at all. I appreciate getting any answer. I am just really trying to figure out what the numbers mean for the actual sound.
It really doesn't have much to do with being neafrield -- that's just the quasi-anechoic response. We also have a substantial ability to hear speakers through the room above bass frequencies, so I wouldn't agree that an averaged room position is a more accurate estimation of what it will sound like. Otherwise throw all the research into anechoic measurements out the window lol.
That said, this is essentially what the ER and PIR in the spinorama are supposed to do, so it's not to say an averaged in room response isn't useful, but the methodology needs to be known and it should be considered alongside the anechoic response.
Not to be a party pooper, but in any case, I don't think the measurement you shared really reflects upon the 802D3 measurement previously shared from stereophile. As noted earlier, B&W has little consistency in how its recent speakers measure. the quasi-anechoic measurements available for the 803 show different performance from the 802.
Your in-room measurement shows largely the response I'd expect from the on-axis measurements I could find. Here's a quasi-anechoic measurement from https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/2568-803d3. Note the very different scaling.
It does seem to balance out more in room (out of curiosity, do you have the speakers toed in?), but an in-room response that flat (assuming you're listening from 6+ feet away) usually suggests a somewhat bright sound. Unless you have a lot of treatment. Also the 800 series is fairly narrow directivity usually so probably not as much of a tilt as usual, but still.
To be clear, please don't take this to mean I think you shouldn't enjoy the speakers or anything like that, just trying to get to the meat of what the data says.
That's kind of what I'm getting at lol, I don't think they have a consistent house sound. No two speakers will ever sound exactly the same, but there's more variance between B&W speakers than some other brands I've heard, in my experience.
The B&W 607 was unpleasantly bright to my ears, while Formation Duo I enjoyed, and was more laid back and a bit more on the bassy side, although it's sound was inconsistent and the sweet spot finnicky. This despite them being released fairly close to eachother. I would say in general their treble recently tends to lean bright... but not always.
You should always listen for yourself when possible, but when it comes to this brand, I reallyyy think you should listen for yourself lol.
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In 9 years of retailing audio product I noticed that speaker lines would have a "line-up sound" if it can be referred to that way. I attribute the sound of a mid priced line to using the same tweeter in 5 models of speaker or using more of the same woofer in multiple speaker models. A similar thing happens as one goes up in the price structure of the lines from the same brand. For example the B&W entry level speakers apparently use the same tweeters and so they sound similar but different from the 800 Series. It was this way when I retailed B&W and for other brands too. The JBL tweeter of the time sounded the same in all the same series of speakers until changing to another line from JBL or Energy, or Mission, KEF, Infinity etc etc. They all have a house sound if people like to categorize the speaker lines into sounds.Like a house
Focal also has a house sound
Also Genelec and Neumann.
I guess it's a certain tonality you can recognize when you hear it.
Yes, I was able to compare the B&W 804 D3 and 702 S2 side by side at a dealer. They are pretty close in size to each other. The 804 D3 were SO much brighter than the 702 S2. I'd say the 804 were also a bit more dynamic, but I didn't think they really had much more/better bass than the 702. I actually thought I'd rather have the 702 for extended listening, but I want a larger speaker and the 702 is the largest speaker in that line.
bo_knows
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Hello Art,
May I ask, what type of diffusers are you using on the ceiling ( quadratic)? How high is your ceiling? Where are they positioned (above your head)? Can you share some photos of your room? Thanks!
That and the 702 is ~ a third of the expense of the 804. Did you do a crank it up test to see how dynamic they are at a higher volume setting? I'm curious if the 702 can go a little more because of the additional 6.5" driver.
It's been a few years ago now when I heard them. So, what still has stuck in my mind is the difference in the high frequencies. I do think the 702 was dynamic enough, but I don't think we really cranked them up to a high volume level.
I always do a crank-it test. If it fails it's under warranty. It's a good way to weed out those woofers that bottom out the voice coil former or simply hit a wall and can't go further. Sometimes a user just needs to rock out or get some loud dynamic classical stuff.
BTW, with respect to 702 S2 vs 804 D3, I didn't realize how much deeper bass response B&W claims for the 804. If you consider the curved panels of the 804 and that the dimensions are not that different, I don't see how the cabinet volume of the 804 is that much more than the 702. Yet, B&W claims bass response of 24Hz +/- 3 dB for the 804, while they claim 46 Hz +/- 3 dB for the 702. That seems like quite a disparity for such a small difference in size. Is this possible?
I do use the same music and usually try about 6 or 8 different tracks. I find if it gets too convoluted and sophisticated with too much material then I can't focus on changes and differences. I use a female vocalist for a sibilance and nasal check and then a mix of jazz fusion, pop, rock and of course Pantera and Frank Zappa.
I have never purported to be a speaker techie type other than being subjective about them and the basic design differences. I found speakers to be a very technical complicated subject and therefore have put my time and effort into solid state stuff and mechatronics. Other than the basic sales pitch and mechanical design I pretty much have been subjective when choosing speakers. So the difference between a 804 and a 702 physically and mechanically eludes me and I would approach the matter with a subjective bend and knowing warranty service arrangements and other simple stuff.
Art Vandelay
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I'll have to send photos next week, because I'm away from my main residence and living mostly at my second residence in the mountains until covid restrictions are fully lifted - in about 4-6 week's time. So I'm only driving back down every couple of weeks to collect the mail and mow lawns etc.
But in answer to the questions, the diffusers are located at the first (primary) reflection points on the ceiling, which is the usual 8 ft high. I actually made them myself because I couldn't find anything available commercially that was fully adequate.
I designed the dimensions of the diffusers such that they work at frequencies above about 4 kHz, so they mostly 'diffuse' energy in the range 5-6 kHz, - due to the polar response of the tweeter and the overall room / listening position geometry. Without the diffusers there was (measurably) a bit too much energy in the low treble at the listening position (averaged measurements), and the treble balance is 'audibly' much better with the diffusers in place.
I'll hopefully have a purpose built listening room (up here in the mountains) completed by mid next year. It will have a 10 ft ceiling and ideal acoustic dimensions, and built with materials for lowest resonances and soundproofing etc. At 3600 ft above sea level it's much colder here too, which his perfect for big class A amplifiers.
