Dan Clark Stealth Review (State of the Art Headphone)

[someguyontheinternet]

I have no clue what they mean by micro- macrodynamics, speed, resolution, etc. which they present as attributes which exist isolated from the frequency response.

I don't claim any of these though?
I only stated that there are speculations for this characteristic and that I want to gather meaningful data to assess if it exists or not.
At no point do I claim that "macrodynamics" exists and the other characteristics are not even mentioned by me.

It's fine to point out flaws in my argumentation or proposed experiment, but to shamelessly misrepresent my statements I find to be quite rude.

 

[artburda]

I don't claim any of these though?
I only stated that there are speculations for this characteristic and that I want to gather meaningful data to assess if it exists or not.
At no point do I claim that "macrodynamics" exists and the other characteristics are not even mentioned by me.

It's fine to point out flaws in my argumentation or proposed experiment, but to shamelessly misrepresent my statements I find to be quite rude.

I wasn't referring to you. By "they" I'm talking about certain youtube reviewers that use these terms on a regular basis.

 

[RHO]

I don't doubt they experience these characteristics. I do think most if not all can be traced back to the FR (and maybe THD plot).

 

[preload]

It is true that angle of incidence may affect people differently, pinna shapes vary. Looking at a 2D graph measured on a gras45 cannot tell you how a headphone will sound to your ears.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that.

 

[Robbo99999]

And I already made this point as well, not sure what you're trying to convey, but at this point, I'm not terribly interested.

Must be the Circle of Confusion as related this time to forum conversations!

 

[ifloatoveryou]

Thank you for finally acknowledging that.

I think we agree for the most part and there was a misunderstanding regarding interpreting frequency response.

If two headphones have the exact same frequency response at your own eardrum, they will sound exactly the same. All relevant factors such as resonances, angle of incidence etc would have a measurable effect on frequency response, if accurately measured in your own eardrums. This is a hypothetical scenario and does not reflect the reality of headphone measurements.

You cannot look at a 2d frequency response graph from a gras and know precisely how headphones will sound to your ears. I should stated this clearly earlier! Furthermore, there is information characterized by the frequency response that cannot be understood by anyone by simply looking at a 2d graph, for example resonances. Frequency response is great for providing a general idea of how a headphone sounds and providing a baseline for eq, but looking at a graph is a limited tool. I think we both agree on this.

This actually is my main criticism of Amir's headphone reviews. I believe he should listen before he measures. He measures headphones and evaluates them, with frequency response being the most important measurement. To me, it seems like he overvalues his analysis of frequency response and it biases his listening. For example Amir's measurements of a poorly sealed Ananda and its subsequent bad looking frequency response graph seem to bias his listening in a similar way that a low price biases crinacle or resolve when they listen to a cheap headphone. It is a bit unfair to compare Amir to these reviewers - he has no subjective evaluation of macrodynamics or detail - but the comparison is useful for illustrating my criticism. Funnily enough, my criticism doesn't apply to the stealth review as he listened first. My criticism in the scheme of things is pretty minor and I like Amir's headphone reviews - I think he does a much, much better job than most reviewers.

 

[RHO]

This actually is my main criticism of Amir's headphone reviews. I believe he should listen before he measures. He measures headphones and evaluates them, with frequency response being the most important measurement. To me, it seems like he overvalues his analysis of frequency response and it biases his listening. For example Amir's measurements of a poorly sealed Ananda and its subsequent bad looking frequency response graph seem to bias his listening

I couldn't agree more.
I do not think Crinacle is as much biased by price as other reviewers are. But he definitely has his biases in other areas.

 

[Wolvebain]

Thanks @amirm and @Dan Clark for this review and assistance!

Just received the pro-forma for the DCA Stealth this morning (what a journey that was!!!).
Payment made to dealer, and hope to get my pair......... within the month

 

[Lord Victor]

Someone mentioned they thought og it as misdirected sound energy, makes sense to me

Yea, I’ve heard similar reasoning - though at the end of the day, I just know I found other headphones with that less physical character, like the Ether C very boring and underwhelming to listen to… Which does irritate me on an intellectual level, if they are indeed more “correct”.

 

[Sharur]

DAC SINAD: 120 dB!
AMP SINAD: 120 dB!
Headphone SINAD:

81 dB!

 

[Robbo99999]

I think we agree for the most part and there was a misunderstanding regarding interpreting frequency response.

If two headphones have the exact same frequency response at your own eardrum, they will sound exactly the same. All relevant factors such as resonances, angle of incidence etc would have a measurable effect on frequency response, if accurately measured in your own eardrums. This is a hypothetical scenario and does not reflect the reality of headphone measurements.

You cannot look at a 2d frequency response graph from a gras and know precisely how headphones will sound to your ears. I should stated this clearly earlier! Furthermore, there is information characterized by the frequency response that cannot be understood by anyone by simply looking at a 2d graph, for example resonances. Frequency response is great for providing a general idea of how a headphone sounds and providing a baseline for eq, but looking at a graph is a limited tool. I think we both agree on this.

This actually is my main criticism of Amir's headphone reviews. I believe he should listen before he measures. He measures headphones and evaluates them, with frequency response being the most important measurement. To me, it seems like he overvalues his analysis of frequency response and it biases his listening. For example Amir's measurements of a poorly sealed Ananda and its subsequent bad looking frequency response graph seem to bias his listening in a similar way that a low price biases crinacle or resolve when they listen to a cheap headphone. It is a bit unfair to compare Amir to these reviewers - he has no subjective evaluation of macrodynamics or detail - but the comparison is useful for illustrating my criticism. Funnily enough, my criticism doesn't apply to the stealth review as he listened first. My criticism in the scheme of things is pretty minor and I like Amir's headphone reviews - I think he does a much, much better job than most reviewers.

I think if Amir was to start listening to headphones before he does the measurements then I think it would be important to A/B the reviewed headphone with a known exceedingly high performing headphone (perhaps the Dan Clark Stealth) so that it could act as a reference point, simply because your mind very quickly gets used to the new different sound of a headphone even if it's a long way off the mark from a frequency response perspective, so A/B'ing the headphone you're eliminating that variable to some degree. I think this would provide a more accurate subjective review of the headphone, and then he could do the measurements and creation of EQ and final subjective assessment. I'm not too fussed if Amir listens to the headphone before measuring or not, but I can imagine scenarios where if he listened to the headphone first that it might not always marry up with what he expects to see in the measurements, which might shake up or put some of the measurements into a different perspective. In my experience I believe in the relevance of the measurements, with the exception being the distortion measurements which I think too much weight is placed in their current form.

 

[garbulky]

DAC SINAD: 120 dB!
AMP SINAD: 120 dB!
Headphone SINAD:

Man that is so ridiculously impressive.

 

[ifloatoveryou]

I think if Amir was to start listening to headphones before he does the measurements then I think it would be important to A/B the reviewed headphone with a known exceedingly high performing headphone (perhaps the Dan Clark Stealth) so that it could act as a reference point, simply because your mind very quickly gets used to the new different sound of a headphone even if it's a long way off the mark from a frequency response perspective, so A/B'ing the headphone you're eliminating that variable to some degree. I think this would provide a more accurate subjective review of the headphone, and then he could do the measurements and creation of EQ and final subjective assessment. I'm not too fussed if Amir listens to the headphone before measuring or not, but I can imagine scenarios where if he listened to the headphone first that it might not always marry up with what he expects to see in the measurements, which might shake up or put some of the measurements into a different perspective. In my experience I believe in the relevance of the measurements, with the exception being the distortion measurements which I think too much weight is placed in their current form.

I agree with everything you said, I believe this approach of A/B tests with the Stealth before measurements would lead to a better subjective assessment.

For what it's worth, Amir qualifies the part of the ananda review I am criticizing as biased as "purely subjective and may be nonsense" in the video review. I do think Amir's subjective assessments can be improved by the approach you describe but I also wouldn't be bothered if the approach stays the same - I like Amir's reviews.

 

[Jimbob54]

DAC SINAD: 120 dB!
AMP SINAD: 120 dB!
Headphone SINAD:

Yes, but if the previous components are both 80db SINAD and that's due to high noise, that could be pretty audible especially in sensitive cans.

 

[Sharur]

Yes, but if the previous components are both 80db SINAD and that's due to high noise, that could be pretty audible especially in sensitive cans.

Sure, but that doesn't make SINAD chasing in DACs and AMPs meaningful past an Apple Dongle. I still don't understand the point in inefficient headphones. Is there a performance related reason this headphone can't get loud from an Apple Dongle?

 

[Jimbob54]

Sure, but that doesn't make SINAD chasing in DACs and AMPs meaningful past an Apple Dongle. I still don't understand the point in inefficient headphones. Is there a performance related reason this headphone can't get loud from an Apple Dongle?
View attachment 152858

Depends how much current is needed to get these to the level you want I guess. The phone powered dongles might run out of juice for low impedance cans like these at higher required SPL, especially if you apply some EQ.

Not sure what the relevance of the above table is though?

 

[Sharur]

Depends how much current is needed to get these to the level you want I guess. The phone powered dongles might run out of juice for low impedance cans like these at higher required SPL, especially if you apply some EQ.

Low impedance headphones on their own can't choke apple dongle as its output impedance is very low. My point is that this headphone does not need to be as insensitive as it is if the Audeze sine or LCD-X (horrible tonality though) can be driven loud from an apple dongle.

Not sure what the relevance of the above table is though?

If we equate the left column to SINAD, and the apple dongle has a SINAD of 99 dB, what are you gaining from 120 dB SINAD?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-shoutometer.2555/#post-176700

 

[Jimbob54]

Low impedance headphones on their own can't choke apple dongle as its output impedance is very low. My point is that this headphone does not need to be as insensitive as it is if the Audeze sine or LCD-X (horrible tonality though) can be driven loud from an apple dongle.


If we equate the left column to SINAD, and the apple dongle has a SINAD of 99 dB, what are you gaining from 120 dB SINAD?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-shoutometer.2555/#post-176700

No, but if the headphone is pretty insensitive/ inefficient (like this) and its low impedance (like this is ) then the amp might run out of current before it maxes on voltage. Im far from competent to work out what the required current out of the apple dongle (assuming the 2v non limited version) to get the Stealth up to, say 94 SPL but Amir warns a beefy amp is required.

But what does power requirement have to do with SINAD?

And again, if the reason a DAC has a (comparatively ) low SINAD is mostly a high noise floor, then you amplify that noise in a higher noise floor amp you might wish for a better measuring DAC. At what levels it starts to matter in either DAC or AMP or both I know not, but its cumulative.

 

[Sharur]

No, but if the headphone is pretty insensitive/ inefficient (like this) and its low impedance (like this is ) then the amp might run out of current before it maxes on voltage. Im far from competent to work out what the required current out of the apple dongle (assuming the 2v non limited version) to get the Stealth up to, say 94 SPL but Amir warns a beefy amp is required.

I said that the headphone does not need to be insensitive. Unless, of course, someone can tell me why the headphone has to be insensitive to reach its measured performance.

But what does power requirement have to do with SINAD?

And again, if the reason a DAC has a (comparatively ) low SINAD is mostly a high noise floor, then you amplify that noise in a higher noise floor amp you might wish for a better measuring DAC. At what levels it starts to matter in either DAC or AMP or both I know not, but its cumulative.

My original comment was pointing out the SINAD differences in components of the audio chain. Then you brought up the power needed to get these loud.

 

[Jimbob54]

I said that the headphone does not need to be insensitive. Unless, of course, someone can tell me why the headphone has to be insensitive to reach its measured performance.

My original comment was pointing out the SINAD differences in components of the audio chain. Then you brought up the power needed to get these loud.

Dont know , but lower sensitivity and lower impedance its a consistent trait of the Aeon shaped DCA planars so lets ask @Dan Clark . And you kind of brouight in the power question asking "Is there a performance related reason this headphone can't get loud from an Apple Dongle?". I gave you the reason, it (might) need more current than the dongle can provide.