Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

[T.M.Noble]

What I'm curious about is whether Schiit is running these at 8x oversampling or 4x oversampling like the early Modi Multibit.

I believe the More is Less is 4x and the other two are 8X.

 

[bboris77]

We plan on doing more tests just like this in the future that are more rigorous. Covid threw a wrench into the plans but stay tuned. We are genuinely interested in ABX tests because of the papers I have read I haven't been overly impressed.

My issue with the classic blind test approach is that it assumes that if one can not reliably tell a difference between two devices while rapidly switching between them while playing the same source, that it must mean that they sound identical. There are several problems with this assumption:

- the listener is a huge variable because people have different listening abilities

- quick-switching between components while they are playing a continuous piece of music may not be the best way of conducting these tests because we are not comparing how the two components sound when playing an identical part of the song. A better alternative would be to set up a scenario where a very short piece of music (2-3 seconds) is played on one DAC, and then immediately replayed on the other DAC right after we switch to it. This may be difficult to set up properly so it works in both directions. A simple version of this test that only works in one direction can be setup as a time offset between 2 different zones in JRiver. This way, whenever you switch from A to B, the source B is always going to replay the last 3 seconds of what the source A just played.

- just because a listener cannot reliably tell a difference between various components while quickly switching between them while they are playing an identical piece of music, it does not mean that they would not be able to have a different experience if they were to listen to these components for a prolonged time period. Sometimes, subtle things can become fatiguing over a prolonged period of time, but may not be instantly apparent.

 

[SIY]

We plan on doing more tests just like this in the future that are more rigorous. Covid threw a wrench into the plans but stay tuned. We are genuinely interested in ABX tests because of the papers I have read I haven't been overly impressed.

Basic controls are necessary for truth. They are inconvenient for marketing.

 

[ElNino]

I believe the More is Less is 4x and the other two are 8X.

Thanks for the info! I was guessing that was probably the case.

 

[danadam]

My issue with a classic blind test approach is that it assumes that if one can not reliably tell a difference between two devices while rapidly switching between them while playing the same source, that it must mean that they sound identical.

I don't know what "classic blind test approach" is, but I don't think he is talking about it. He explicitly said "ABX" and ABX tests assume no such thing. You can listen as long as you want if you think it works better for you.

A better alternative would be to set up a scenario where a very short piece of music (2-3 seconds) is played on one DAC, and then immediately replayed on the other DAC right after we switch to it. This may be difficult to set up properly so it works in both directions.

Why can't you play those 2-3 seconds in a loop and switch DACs when one iteration ends and the next begins?

 

[T.M.Noble]

Basic controls are necessary for truth. They are inconvenient for marketing.

Is that an implication that we are dishonest?

Now that I have you, as a technical expert, can you direct me to a peer reviewed scientific paper on ABX audio testing?

 

[bboris77]

I don't know what "classic blind test approach" is, but I don't think he is talking about it. He explicitly said "ABX" and ABX tests assume no such thing. You can listen as long as you want if you think it works better for you.

Why can't you play those 2-3 seconds in a loop and switch DACs when one iteration ends and the next begins?

You could, but then you would have to stop the test after each loop to set up a new one. It would be neat to be able to just listen to a song and then click a button which would automatically switch to the other DAC and replay the last 3 seconds played on the other input and then continue with the song.

ABX audio tests have always tended to rely on our short-term memory (few seconds), which means that the clips have to be short. I was just contemplating whether it would be possible to prefer a component over another while listening to it over a much longer period EVEN if one is unable reliably tell a difference between them in an ABX audio test.

 

[Jinjuku]

Go ask Jason. You know where you can get a hold of him.

It's all good. I had questions and they were answered.

 

[gvl]

I believe the More is Less is 4x and the other two are 8X.

More money for less oversampling, I get it now

 

[gvl]

After going to all the trouble of setting up the blind switching it would have been nice if Chris had managed to do some simple tests to demonstrate that he could actually distinguish between the different DACs. Unfortunately he doesn't provide any data on this. If "these differences are very easy to spot" then it should have been easy to reach statistical significance on a simple ABX test.

That was clearly a BS blind test done for marketing purposes.

 

[Hemi-Demon]

Again, I am not here to speak for Mike Moffat. I am speaking about this company and what we actually do, not what Mika Moffat says. For over a decade we have constantly tried to improve. Taking the criticism that we receive on this forum has been part of that improvement, something I have stated many times here. Our actions as a company speak louder than an interview. If you look at the history of the company, all of our units measure significantly better than they used to. We have pushed for better quality in production, higher quality materials while keeping the price as low as we can. You can criticize an individual for an inappropriate comment but it clearly is not reflective of our actions as a company.

I am not focused on whether or not Amir reviews our gear. That is his decision. If he has a problem with Mike for his comments and does not want to review our gear, that's his right on his forum. I was developing a rapport with Amir and it's sad that we have arrived at this place. I hope that relationship can be repaired in the future but sadly it is not for me to decide. Buy our products if you like them. Don't buy them if you don't. Either way, we are still going to produce the products we enjoy and try to give our customers the best experience we can.

I for one appreciate that you are here, even amidst some of the uncalled for attack posts. I dont get why audio has to become so combative. I also appreciate that Schiit has improved their engineering, as a consumer option, built in the USA. SOME audio fans want that tube, vinyl sound from the 70's and that's fine, so buynthe OG Yggy.

I do hope you stick around and I also wish that you would send all three to ASR, for review, as Schiit has done with all these other sites. Some of us want to see verified data before we purchase.

Or package up all three, and the members can put up $100-$150 each to buy them, have them shipped to ASR. Have one of the ASR mods collect the $6,500 or so. At the end of the review, give them away in a forum gift giveaway to 3 lucky members, who would win a $2,500 dac for no more than $150.

Cheers and congrats on the new models.

 

[gvl]

I’m too very excited about these new models, if the 20 bit model aces Amir's tests it would be a new item on my wish list.

 

[ElNino]

More money for less oversampling, I get it now

It's actually a decent engineering tradeoff for the 20-bit part. I would have made the same engineering decision they made; I'm not criticizing it.

 

[threni]

I will leave that up to the patrons here. I imagine if enough people request a review, he will reach out. We are always willing to send out a unit for review.

You might as well send them to him now and hope he reviews them. I doubt anybody on this site is buying untested kit. It's got to be the cheapest way of promoting a product there is.

 

[gvl]

It's actually a decent engineering tradeoff for the 20-bit part. I would have made the same engineering decision they made; I'm not criticizing it.

I'm not either, there must have been a technical reason. Just humor.

 

[ShiZo]

Is it true that Amir will no longer review schitt products? I was actually looking forward to the more is less review, although it wouldn't replace my d90se.

 

[SIY]

Is that an implication that we are dishonest?

Now that I have you, as a technical expert, can you direct me to a peer reviewed scientific paper on ABX audio testing?

Does Google not work for you? Start with the classic papers of Lipshitz & Vanderkooy, Clark, Carlstrom, and of course Olive and Toole.

ABX is one format for controlled testing. There are many others, which have been well established in sensory science. The key is ears only- double blind and level matched. Don’t do that and you’re playing make believe- or marketing.

 

[T.M.Noble]

It's all good. I had questions and they were answered.

Sorry if that came off pithy. If you want a certain level of detail for those things you will have to inquire at the source.

 

[ShiZo]

Sorry if that came off pithy. If you want a certain level of detail for those things you will have to inquire at the source.

Inquire at the source to get a certain level of detail? I don't follow.

 

[Jimbob54]

Inquire at the source to get a certain level of detail? I don't follow.

I believe T. M is more on the marketing /PR side, he's saying contact the designers/technical side directly if you want to go into technical product details.