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Genelec GLM Review (Room EQ & Setup)

richard12511

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The Genelec subwoofers are really good .
I would say at least as good as their monitors .:)

We have compared with very expensive REL:s and also SVS and the Genelecs in the same pricerange has, the way I listen , a better sound . A tighter, deeper bass with less distortion.
I was very skeptical in the beginning that Genelecs subwoofers could play at the same quality level as SVS , but then I have heard the 7050c and 7360 SAM and they are both better to play music than SVS PB2000 and REL S5.

The 7360 SAM can play VERY loud ( louder than SVS PB2000. ) and the 7050c can, despite the small 8 inch driver, play as loud and clean as bigger subs from other brands at the same pricerange.

Ilkka Rissanen is a genius at constructing subwoofers , - he was earlier the subwoofer constructor of hometheatreshack.

Couldn't disagree more. The Genelec subs severely lack performance in comparison to other subs around the same price(I own both). Their value lies in their ease of use with GLM. You almost can't get a bad integration with the 7370/8351, and a bad subwoofer with great integration beats a great subwoofer with bad integration. I actually tried switching from 2 RS2s to 2 7370s when I got my 8351s, so I could use Dirac in my office and GLM in the main multichannel room. That didn't last long, though. It was obvious very quickly that the 7370s were not even in the same league as the RS2s(even tested both 7370s against 1 RS2), despite costing more. The Genelec subs are in the office now, where they satisfy me perfectly(much smaller room).

That said, I don't think Genelec sub performance is necessarily out of line. If you compare their subs to their major competitors(Neumann, Dynaudio, Adam, etc.), the prices are competitive. Also, compared to more traditional hifi brands, like Revel, they too are similarly priced. It's these subwoofer "only" brands (HSU, Rythmik, Monoprice, PSA, JTR, etc.) that came out in the mid 2000s who's prices are bucking the trend, in a good way. The fact that you can get a 600/2000watt, 15" ported reference capable sub with 16Hz tuning from HSU for less than $1,000 is incredible, and they even give you much more relevant and detailed measurements(CEA-2010). You have to jump up to the 7380 to get similar performance with Genelec.

These subwoofer first companies entered the market offering 2-4x the subwoofer price/performance of and the older "speaker first" brands. Genelec/Neumann/Revel haven't adjusted their subwoofer prices to compete, and they likely won't. Why should they? People are still buying their subs at those traditional prices. These subwoofer first companies are small fry, and most in the market for (Genelec, Neumann, etc) speakers/subs don't even know they exist. No reason to lower prices 2-4x to try and compete with someone most of your customers have never heard of ;).
 
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soundwave76

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My two cents for the sub discussion. I tried several Genelec subs prior to the DSP models and it was such a pain to try to find the right sub placement. And even with the best placement and settings, the sound was not great for music listening. Movies were ok. Then I got the first Genelec DSP sub, ran the GLM autocal and boom, great sound at first try.
 

Tangband

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Yep, I have the 7370a sub connected to my 8350a (reviewed by Amir) integrated via GLM and this is endgame stereo listening as far as I'm concerned.

No, you can buy one more 7370 for even better quality:).
Integration is everything , and its the digital crossovers in the 73xx range plus GLM that makes them very special.
 

Tangband

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My two cents for the sub discussion. I tried several Genelec subs prior to the DSP models and it was such a pain to try to find the right sub placement. And even with the best placement and settings, the sound was not great for music listening. Movies were ok. Then I got the first Genelec DSP sub, ran the GLM autocal and boom, great sound at first try.
My guess: You cant easily do 48 dB/oct filtering in analog active crossovers , the 73xx range has dsp crossovers with 48 dB/oct slope, wich makes them much easier to integrate, especially if you only have one sub.

Combining this with the inbuilt DSP HP-filtering in the 83xx range, you get good integration.

*The analog Genelec subwoofers have 36 dB/oct lowpass filtering .
(One thing people often forget, is that you also need a very good highpass filter with the right order of HP slope, to get the integration perfectly. Such as the ones inside the 83xx range.)

*https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...5004abb5c14f6/7060A_7070A_7071A_datasheet.pdf
 
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Tangband

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A BIG Mastering studio after upgrading all their subwoofers from Rythmik Audio to ATCs back in 2019, just purchased a pair of F15HPs again because they like our subwoofers better. The big advantage of Rythmik Audio subwoofers for mastering and mixing is that they operate in the analog domain so there is ZERO added latency, not to mention Direct Servo makes the sound more accurate and clean. You can find our subwoofers in recording and mastering studios around the world. My personal mastering subwoofer is a E22.

Operating in the analog domain can be beneficial in some cases, but not in all.

If you want to drive your Genelec 83xx GLM loudspeakers with a digital signal, its also better to integrate them with a subwoofer that has digital inputs with GLM , ie having about the same latency. The benefits are:

1. What you gain is perfect integration, something thats in reality is very hard to get perfect with analog active crossovers, especially if you combine an analog subwoofer with digital main loudspeakers.

2. The sound also gets a bit clearer if you drop the A/D conversion and feed the digital crossovers in 83xx and 73xx with a digital signal from the source. A cleaner digital source signal is gonna sound better than an analog active filter because with a digital input, you drive the dsp crossover directly. You get a bit closer to the music.

Edit: with an entirely analog loudspeaker, passive or active, it makes much more sense to have everything in the analog domain, including the active crossovers. In that case you are right.
 
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ElNino

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TabCam

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Yes and this is what I don't like about mutiposition EQ systems. You can't easily try different things because measurements keep changing on their own. JBL gets around this by using 8 microphones you place statically. Alas this makes it very expensive so they loan the gear to installers.

GLM could do it in this instance since it uses just one measurement.
To be honest, I am a little disappointed with the less than scientific approach of room EQ. Repeatability is a cornerstone of the scientific method and It is well known that single spot microphone measurements are not reliable. Even though 9 spot measurements are not that repeatable, they are far superior to single spot measurements.

The suggestion for a before and after Moving Microphone Measurement seems to me a valid one. It has been show to be very repeatable for a FR. This article bij Jean-Luc Ohl has scientific data for the MMM approach.
 

Masza

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To be honest, I am a little disappointed with the less than scientific approach of room EQ. Repeatability is a cornerstone of the scientific method and It is well known that single spot microphone measurements are not reliable. Even though 9 spot measurements are not that repeatable, they are far superior to single spot measurements.

The suggestion for a before and after Moving Microphone Measurement seems to me a valid one. It has been show to be very repeatable for a FR. This article bij Jean-Luc Ohl has scientific data for the MMM approach.

GLM supports multipoint measurements.
 

Spocko

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heh, just yesterday i watched pass the remote stream
looking forward to the shoot-out :)
No, you can buy one more 7370 for even better quality:).
Integration is everything , and its the digital crossovers in the 73xx range plus GLM that makes them very special.
LOL it's sadly only a temporary 2.1 system in my studio and will be subsumed into my home theater system where the JTR4000 will take over the subwoofer duties while the 7370 simply becomes part of the "full range" Genelec L/C/R channels.
 

Spocko

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My two cents for the sub discussion. I tried several Genelec subs prior to the DSP models and it was such a pain to try to find the right sub placement. And even with the best placement and settings, the sound was not great for music listening. Movies were ok. Then I got the first Genelec DSP sub, ran the GLM autocal and boom, great sound at first try.
Pretty much THIS. You're paying a premium for the quick & easy GLM/SAM integration of Genelec speaker/sub combos, set and forget. I hate the time consuming torture of REW measurements and manual tuning, not to mention additional software/devices that need to remain connected to the chain.
 

DigiPete

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10 years of experience with Genelec SAM + GLM, and I'm still a fan boy!

I'm an audiophile, and not at tinker.
Thus GLM gets the best out of my system, in any room, in no time at all.
So my priorities are probably aligned with the PRO's.

I have been running a 5.1 setup with 8260's + a 7271sub for 10 years.
Friends and family thought I was crazy spending like that.
In audiophile terms, it's a cheap ass 5.1 system!

GLM 3 SW has been wonky at times, but the calibrations always spot on.
With GLM 4 SW that is now a thing of the past.
And the imaging out of those co-axial drivers are still beyond anything else we mere mortals can afford.

I appreciate that you can tinker with much cheaper systems and get nice sound.
Nothing however could be easier than GLM's one push of a button calibration.
Yes - you have to learn your way around GLM and spend 15 min reading the manual.

Points that I totally appreciate from Genelec SAM:

  • Sound - just just just perfectly neutral punchy imaging . . . .
  • Nothing went obsolete in 10 years except the original Genelec network adaptor once - and they actually offered a cheap trade-in.
  • The system is insanely expandable - as GLM can manage and control more than 80 Genelec monitors and subwoofers.
  • Fully digital signal ways all the way to the speaker and no more fussing over speaker cable cost or length.
  • Perfect sub integration with GLM guiding you on the X-over freq digitally set from GLM based on room measurements.
  • Automatic distance compensation of all monitors and subs.
  • Rotary and wireless volume control - tactile or convenient and I have both.
  • Instant switch between calibrations - single listener / whole couch / remote position etc.
  • Takes analogue when I need it - just switch in GLM.
  • GLM 4.1 SW and the promise of more functionality on the way.
  • Kid, idiot & DJ safe speakers - boardering on indestructible.
  • The predictability of great system response. I can take the full rig to big venues and be confident in the performance.
  • 5 year warranty!!!
  • Sound, did I mention the sweet sound??? ;)

    Tinker or just listen
    I made my choice and never regretted a second.
 
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Haskil

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J'ai testé Audyssey il y a des années et ce n'était pas du tout le cas.
Mais quand vous avez testé le Denon AVR 3600, il me semble que vous avez écrit que contrairement à un test que vous aviez fait quelques années auparavant, la version testée cette fois-ci était correcte.
 

TabCam

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GLM supports multipoint measurements.
In any case I would use multi-point over single point and I explicitly meant the test methodology. So a single or even 9 point average is in my eyes not repeatable enough for repeatable experiment. If we mainly look at Frequency Response, the MMM is far more accurate.

I would also add the multipoint measurement for the Room Correction System if it was not used as it is paramount to get an accurate picture of what it can do.

That said, I would not expect a RCS to fill relative narrow band dips as they most likely are caused by nulling so more power would not help.
 

richard12511

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Operating in the analog domain can be beneficial in some cases, but not in all.

If you want to drive your Genelec 83xx GLM loudspeakers with a digital signal, its also better to integrate them with a subwoofer that has digital inputs with GLM , ie having about the same latency. The benefits are:

1. What you gain is perfect integration, something thats in reality is very hard to get perfect with analog active crossovers, especially if you combine an analog subwoofer with digital main loudspeakers.

2. The sound also gets a bit clearer if you drop the A/D conversion and feed the digital crossovers in 83xx and 73xx with a digital signal from the source. A cleaner digital source signal is gonna sound better than an analog active filter because with a digital input, you drive the dsp crossover directly. You get a bit closer to the music.

Edit: with an entirely analog loudspeaker, passive or active, it makes much more sense to have everything in the analog domain, including the active crossovers. In that case you are right.

Note that GLM only properly integrates 1 subwoofer atm. If you're wanting to integrate multiple subs(and do it 100% properly), you need something like Audiolense, DLBM, MiniDSP + REW, MSO, or Trinnov. Supposedly this will be fixed at some point, though.
 

Masza

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Note that GLM only properly integrates 1 subwoofer atm. If you're wanting to integrate multiple subs(and do it 100% properly), you need something like Audiolense, DLBM, MiniDSP + REW, MSO, or Trinnov. Supposedly this will be fixed at some point, though.

There is this AutoPhase in GLM which allows you to integrate subwoofer with one speaker. So with two subs in stereo setup, one sub for left and one for right. But if you would like the subwoofers to playback the same signal (i.e. mono) that could cause them being out of phase between each other.
 

Jukka

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Okey @amirm , nice start for a dsp review, but a few points:
  • Two speakers. It's easy to EQ one speaker, just one source. But when you add second, that's where DSP calc & calib has to actually show a difference to competitors.
  • Try full range. Just try it.
  • Where is the time domain?
If you haven't already, you should also test full range Dirac Live with a proper FIR engine l, like the miniDSP SHD. The effect is almost magical (with two speakers).
 

DavSch

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Hello in the round, do I understand correctly that the Neumann MA 1 System uses FIR Filter and the GLM not? Thx in advance
 
OP
amirm

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  • Two speakers. It's easy to EQ one speaker, just one source. But when you add second, that's where DSP calc & calib has to actually show a difference to competitors.
  • Try full range. Just try it.
  • Where is the time domain?
I only have one speaker and the system EQs speakers one at a time. On the range, I did not limit it. That is what it did. There is no time domain correction or change as part of the calibration.
 

DigiPete

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Note that GLM only properly integrates 1 subwoofer atm. If you're wanting to integrate multiple subs(and do it 100% properly), you need something like Audiolense, DLBM, MiniDSP + REW, MSO, or Trinnov. Supposedly this will be fixed at some point, though.

This seems not correct, but I may be missing something.

GLM could always integrate multiple subs, including time of flight and level to main listening position.
Even in a mixed system where some monitors have their own dedicated sub or adaptive W371A SAM™ Woofer.

For multiple subs outputting the same signal, just calibrate as usual and edit the 'Acoustic settings' of each subwoofer to reduce the ‘Level Compensation’ value. Section 10.4 in the current GLM4 System Operating Manual even has a table if you don't know by how many db.
 
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