Dual SVS SB-3000 or Dual PSA S1512 ?

[syzygetic]

This all sounds like someone needs to measure a PSA S1512 ASAP so we can compare it on measured performance!

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Power handling will matter too presumably, as displacement that can't be used isn't beneficial. Let's say you're right though - what would be your hypothesis for why the driver change was made? I'm genuinely struggling with why Tom would make the change, with associated price rises, if the resulting subwoofer performance was so compromised.

These pro drivers are more efficient than their home theater counterparts, so they get very loud - but only where they aren't excursion limited. If you want more slam at 80Hz and the ability to crank it up as high as you want they are the way to go.

 

[Ultrasonic]

These pro drivers are more efficient than their home theater counterparts, so they get very loud - but only where they aren't excursion limited. If you want more slam at 80Hz and the ability to crank it up as high as you want they are the way to go.

Yes, I realise that. I'm just doubtful that typical US home theatre buyers would prioritise this over lower frequency output? And therefore that Tom would make a change with a major compromise like this?

 

[Factolermentation]

These pro drivers are more efficient than their home theater counterparts, so they get very loud - but only where they aren't excursion limited. If you want more slam at 80Hz and the ability to crank it up as high as you want they are the way to go.

This is purely for my comprehension of the physics here but if you took two of these 'pro audio' B&C drivers of differing sizes, would the larger one be capable of producing lower extension via larger air displacement at the same excursion? Or would the larger size also just add to SPL considerations. Assume power handling is more than adequate in both cases. Thanks for all of the contributions/explanations in this thread!

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

This is purely for my comprehension of the physics here but if you took two of these 'pro audio' B&C drivers of differing sizes, would the larger one be capable of producing lower extension via larger air displacement at the same excursion? Or would the larger size also just add to SPL considerations. Assume power handling is more than adequate in both cases. Thanks for all of the contributions/explanations in this thread!

It would do both. The larger driver displaces more air in general, so it can displace more air at low frequencies for deeper extension and it will displace more air for a given input voltage, generating higher SPL.

PSA's top subs use the B&C 21" IPAL driver. Because of its huge cone area and high xmax for a pro driver it is actually quite capable for deep bass. Where it really shines, however, is with SPL. There's basically no limit to how much power you can feed the thing, and it will get ludicrously loud without breaking a sweat.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c3cdd03ddf2cf0004cf419d?_k=p8zd4x

You can see that a pair of them hit 138dB at 80Hz. That was only the limit because the 10,000W being fed to them topped out the amp.

 

[Factolermentation]

It would do both. The larger driver displaces more air in general, so it can displace more air at low frequencies for deeper extension and it will displace more air for a given input voltage, generating higher SPL.

PSA's top subs use the B&C 21" IPAL driver. Because of its huge cone area and high xmax for a pro driver it is actually quite capable for deep bass. Where it really shines, however, is with SPL. There's basically no limit to how much power you can feed the thing, and it will get ludicrously loud without breaking a sweat.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c3cdd03ddf2cf0004cf419d?_k=p8zd4x

You can see that a pair of them hit 138dB at 80Hz. That was only the limit because the 10,000W being fed to them topped out the amp.

Thanks for the detailed response, as I mentioned earlier in this thread my PSA TV2112 (non-IPAL) has been more than adequate for music and home theater in my very open 1st floor space. I was just trying to sort of piece together how all of these components work together. I do think if I ever put together an audio-specific listening space I'd look more into the smaller PSA sealed options.

 

[Dj7675]

Power Sound Audio uses pro audio drivers that are really designed to be used more like woofers rather than dedicated home theater subwoofers. They are excursion limited and are better at delivering high SPL in midbass rather than creating thunderous deep bass and ULF effects. They are great for great extremely clean, accurate bass, but run out of steam pretty early compared to real home theater subwoofers with a lot of xmax and lower tuning.

I have 2 TV1512s (ported, low tuned). In room extension is 11-12 hz (I think they are tuned to around 14hz) I haven't tried to do any SPL tests yet, but my goodness... I can't see how at least the ported "TV" models couldn't be considered anything but excellent for HT.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

If the description below from the top of the line TV42 Ipal is to be believed Tom Vodhanel seems to have deliberately set out to produce a PSA subwoofer design that's different from what others are offering with as much emphasis on mid and upper bass performance as low extension:

The TV42 incorporates two 21 inch IPAL woofers in a large vented cabinet that is tuned unusually low for home audio. This allows powerful in room extension down to 8-11hz while also providing incredible mid and upper bass efficiency. This is truly a unique combination in the industry.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

If the description below from the top of the line TV42 Ipal is to be believed Tom Vodhanel seems to have deliberately set out to produce a PSA subwoofer design that's different from what others are offering with as much emphasis on mid and upper bass performance as low extension:

The TV42 incorporates two 21 inch IPAL woofers in a large vented cabinet that is tuned unusually low for home audio. This allows powerful in room extension down to 8-11hz while also providing incredible mid and upper bass efficiency. This is truly a unique combination in the industry.

That is indeed an insane subwoofer. The 21IPAL is definitely the exception when it comes to these pro drivers. It has a huge cone and considerable xmax, so when you put two of them in a giant vented enclosure and feed them 6000 watts you are going to get some biblical bass. There's no data out there of which I am aware, but when I model them in a box the size of a TV42 I am getting estimates of 115+dB at 10Hz. Nuts.

 

[3kweave]

I would go with the SB3000s. SVS customer service is BEST IN THE BUSINESS. 5 year warranty with no questions asked. I had a problem with my sub and they just sent me a new one. I put the old one in the box and done. Simple. The SB3000 has a great cellphone app that allows you to control the subs volume, PEQ, phase, cross over, and room correction. I feel like you get a great quality sub woofer but even better customer service.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Not wanting to come across at totally anti-SVS as I'm detinitely not, but I do wonder about the long term support for the phone app, and whether this may affect resale value down the line. On the other hand, while the app works it is going to be much more convenient to use than say the Arendal PEQ which can only be set on the sub itself.

 

[tecnogadget]

Not wanting to come across at totally anti-SVS as I'm detinitely not, but I do wonder about the long term support for the phone app, and whether this may affect resale value down the line. On the other hand, while the app works it is going to be much more convenient to use than say the Arendal PEQ which can only be set on the sub itself.

SVS is a solid institution when saying the word “subwoofer”, its the you can’t go wrong for Home Theaters enthusiasts. Based on their sales volume I don’t see them going out of business. If the smartphone app is already working fine without bugs, all they gotta do is maintain it under the App Store and Play Store, no big deal.

 

[Ultrasonic]

SVS is a solid institution when saying the word “subwoofer”, its the you can’t go wrong for Home Theaters enthusiasts. Based on their sales volume I don’t see them going out of business. If the smartphone app is already working fine without bugs, all they gotta do is maintain it under the App Store and Play Store, no big deal.

I still have more confidence in the sub still working in 10-15 years than the app .

 

[Kachda]

I still have more confidence in the sub still working in 10-15 years than the app .

Consider the app as a bonus, you don’t need it to run the sub.

 

[hege]

I still have more confidence in the sub still working in 10-15 years than the app .

All android apps can be downloaded and saved as apk files from many sites. You don't even need working play store or anything in the future, just the apk and some old android phone.

 

[Sal1950]

Consider the app as a bonus, you don’t need it to run the sub.

Yep, we've been tuning subs without "apps" since day one.
And a good percentage of folks with sub installs like this also have something like Audyssey, Dirac, etc at hand to do the chores.
Everyone wants to play on their phones today and have apps that guide them on how to wipe their butts even.
I don't need no stinkin smart phone, my flipper from TracFone does everything I need, all for under $100 a year.
It can even make a freakin phone call. Imagine that!

 

[Ultrasonic]

All android apps can be downloaded and saved as apk files from many sites. You don't even need working play store or anything in the future, just the apk and some old android phone.

You need a compatable device to run the app...

 

[hege]

You need a compatable device to run the app...

Was this not addressed by "some old android phone", which probably can be gotten for free at such imaginary future time?

 

[Ultrasonic]

Was this not addressed by "some old android phone", which probably can be gotten for free at such imaginary future time?

I did spot that. You'd need one that still works.

 

[Promit]

This is interesting, since specs are light on the actual woofer used in the SVS SB-3000 and the HSU ULS15 MK2. I can find the driver used in the PSA no problem, it's from B&C and sold on Parts Express, but does anyone know what SVS and HSU are using in their competitive models?

I would need to search through my emails but IIRC, I was told by SVS that their speakers are all designed in-house when I specifically asked the question.

SVS does have custom woofers, but they’ve always been customized versions of Peerless XXLS woofers and you can get a reasonable approximation of their capabilities by modeling the XXLS. It’s not a perfect match, I think the SVS versions are usually a bit better at least in the SVS style application. Compare the hardware though and the similarities are pretty visible.

@hardisj I left a comment on your PB-2000 Pro video on YouTube, I was hoping you’d seen it.