• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Fuses do affect sound, the question is how much

zepplock

Active Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
230
Likes
259
Location
San Jose, CA
All components have a directional component, even fuses and wires .... just not anywhere remotely close to the audio band. For wires you would have to get way into RF frequencies before you could detect anything. I am not sure you ever would for a fuse.

Contrary to what you may see written, things can be directional because the signals are AC. If you are just sending DC, there is no mechanism for directionality.

Could you explain how a copper wire can have a "directional component"?
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
The audiophile imagination is a wonderous thing and a complete waste of time. The more I read Dr Floyd Toole's book on sound reproduction, the more fawked the audiophile is becomming in this person's eyes.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
I've heard that slow-blow fuses tend to 'round off' the transients, and quick-blow fuses tend to emphasize transients. I read it on the internet, so it must be true. :oops:

I was just reading a power analyzer manual (like real test equipment that engineers use). It discussed the issues of fuses in the circuit for protecting the instrumentation being a source of error at frequencies >2Khz due to inductance (spiral wound). It is a high end instrument.

Of course thinking a fuse in a power supply for a piece of audio equipment is going to impact transients is just nutters.
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
All components have a directional component, even fuses and wires .... just not anywhere remotely close to the audio band. For wires you would have to get way into RF frequencies before you could detect anything. I am not sure you ever would for a fuse.

Contrary to what you may see written, things can be directional because the signals are AC. If you are just sending DC, there is no mechanism for directionality.

What the hell are you saying?
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
Could you explain how a copper wire can have a "directional component"?

Copper does not on its own. A "wire" / cable is effective a bunch of resistors/inductors/capacitors in series/parallel. No MFG process is perfect so those values shift along the length of a cable. The transfer function input to output is not the same as the transfer function output to input. You would never see this until far into RF frequencies.
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
What is the book like. Is it all dry empirical physics sciencey stuff or is it written in simple English.

I have an EE background and I find the book a tough thing to read more because of wording more then anything else. I had to reread a couple of sections in chapter 4 a few times as it sounded contradictory onto itself the 1st couple of passes. There are plenty of empircal evidence through lots of graphs. Toole does try and keep things simple. Chapter 4 deals with human perception.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,835
Likes
16,496
Location
Monument, CO
I agree with @audio2design on the directionality of wires, FWIWFM, as I deal with this in my day job. It starts being a problem up around 10 GHz for small wires/traces and is a PITA at 40 GHz. For audio, not so much, which is why I didn't even think of including it in my earlier post. The mechanisms are pretty well known but mostly related to surface roughness and such, so very hard to control or measure.
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242

So you know from reading tne book that fuses cannot effect sound quality unless blown.

Getting back to cable direction, not even RF imparts a direction, gobs of attenuation and phase smear if its not designed to propogate RF.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
So you know from reading tne book that fuses cannot effect sound quality unless blown.

Getting back to cable direction, not even RF imparts a direction, gobs of attenuation and phase smear if its not designed to propogate RF.

Yes RF imparts a direction. Put a kink in an RF cable at about 1/3 the length and measure the S12 and S21 parameters. At high enough frequencies there will be a difference. This shouldn't be controversial. It only is because people who don't understand the fundamentals have been spouting "because it's AC" as a reason for it not being directional for year. The complete opposite is true.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,835
Likes
16,496
Location
Monument, CO
So you know from reading tne book that fuses cannot effect sound quality unless blown.

Getting back to cable direction, not even RF imparts a direction, gobs of attenuation and phase smear if its not designed to propogate RF.

What does that mean? Confused...
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
Yes RF imparts a direction. Put a kink in an RF cable at about 1/3 the length and measure the S12 and S21 parameters. At high enough frequencies there will be a difference. This shouldn't be controversial. It only is because people who don't understand the fundamentals have been spouting "because it's AC" as a reason for it not being directional for year. The complete opposite is true.
I understand what you are saying and your putting in a physical limitation due to the nature of the physics of propogation of RF frequencies. An unkinked cable however does NOT impart direction.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
I understand what you are saying and your putting in a physical limitation due to the nature of the physics of propogation of RF frequencies. An unkinked cable however does NOT impart direction.

ALL CABLES impart direction because no cable is perfectly manufactured, nor perfectly terminated. It is impossible. At very high frequencies, as noted, MFG tolerances become even more critical. In very high frequencies, the most critical thing is consistency and mechanical stability. They don't use foamed insulation which has lower dielectric constant because it is too mechanically unstable.

This really is not debatable. It is simple circuits. The circuit is made up of RLC elements that are not all the same due to MFG inconsistencies and because they are not all the same, the S12 is not the same as the S21.

It has not even about propagation (though that comes into it as well). It is just basic circuits.
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
ALL CABLES impart direction because no cable is perfectly manufactured, nor perfectly terminated. It is impossible. At very high frequencies, as noted, MFG tolerances become even more critical. In very high frequencies, the most critical thing is consistency and mechanical stability. They don't use foamed insulation which has lower dielectric constant because it is too mechanically unstable.

This really is not debatable. It is simple circuits. The circuit is made up of RLC elements that are not all the same due to MFG inconsistencies and because they are not all the same, the S12 is not the same as the S21.

It has not even about propagation (though that comes into it as well). It is just basic circuits.

Your argueing semantics which I will not partake in.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,835
Likes
16,496
Location
Monument, CO
Your argueing semantics which I will not partake in.

It is not semantics -- the cables are directional at very high frequencies, due to things like surface composition, grain and void structure of the conductors and dielectrics, irregularities in cable and PCB construction, and all those tiny little things that matter a great deal when you hit mW/mmW frequencies (and not at all at audio frequencies). But note we are not talking about diode sort of directionality, where current only flows one way, but differences in the impedance and propagation that charge carriers and magnetic fields see traveling in one direction vs. the other.

For those not following, S- (scattering-) parameters are used to measure the levels of (usually) RF signals, and Sxy indicates the signal at port "x" from port "y". Thus for an amplifier or cable with port 1 being the input and port 2 the output, S21 indicates the signal at port 2 (output) from port 1 (input), and S12 the signal at port 1 as driven into port 2. For an amplifier, S21 is the gain of the amplifier. For an ideal cable S21 = S12, meaning the signal is the same at either end when driven from the other end, but at very high frequencies they are not equal. The cable is directional in the sense that the transfer function from 1 to 2 is not the same as the transfer function form 2 to 1.

HTH - Don
 
Last edited:

zepplock

Active Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
230
Likes
259
Location
San Jose, CA
ALL CABLES impart direction because no cable is perfectly manufactured, nor perfectly terminated. It is impossible. At very high frequencies, as noted, MFG tolerances become even more critical. In very high frequencies, the most critical thing is consistency and mechanical stability. They don't use foamed insulation which has lower dielectric constant because it is too mechanically unstable.

This really is not debatable. It is simple circuits. The circuit is made up of RLC elements that are not all the same due to MFG inconsistencies and because they are not all the same, the S12 is not the same as the S21.

It has not even about propagation (though that comes into it as well). It is just basic circuits.

Why are you changing subject? Who cares about high frequencies. This is audio forum. No one can hear 10Ghz.
Just admit you spit out some BS without reading the context and be done with it.
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
It is not semantics -- the cables are directional at very high frequencies, due to things like surface composition, grain and void structure of the conductors and dielectrics, irregularities in cable and PCB construction, and all those tiny little things that matter a great deal when you hit mW/mmW frequencies (and not at all at audio frequencies). But note we are not talking about diode sort of directionality, where current only flows one way, but differences in the impedance that charge carriers and magnetic fields see traveling in one direction vs. the other.

For those not following, S- (scattering-) parameters are used to measure the levels of (usually) RF signals, and Sxy indicates the signal at port "x" from port "y". Thus for an amplifier or cable with port 1 being the input and port 2 the output, S21 indicates the signal at port 2 (output) from port 1 (input), and S12 the signal at port 1 as driven into port 2. For an amplifier, S21 is the gain of the amplifier. For an ideal cable S21 = S12, meaning the signal is the same at either end when driven from the other end, but at very high frequencies they are not equal. The cable is directional in the sense that the transfer function from 1 to 2 is not the same as the transfer function form 2 to 1.

HTH - Don

I understand but the cables are not deliberately made directional as the audiophiles believe they are.The directionality is inherent because of insufficient manufacturing tolerances and not because they were designed to be. Thats why Im stating its semantics. Im on a tablet so there are going to be lots of typos in my response. My apologies fior that.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,835
Likes
16,496
Location
Monument, CO
Like interjecting posts about cable directionality into a thread about fuses? Look, we've all said it does not matter at audio, and @audio2design was basically correcting my flat statement about non-directionality of cables with a proper qualification, which then got questioned, and here we are.

None of this last bit is about audio, or fuses, or directional audiophile cables or fuses. It was a tangent to clarify an absolute that was not true that devolved into a pissing contest.
 
Top Bottom