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Explain to me what I'm hearing from 45W to 80W

escksu

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For amplifier, as it has been used in this thread, no - you haven’t fixed it and I suggest you read back to the statement I was describing.

if I owned one of the integrated amps listed here that have tone controls or equalisation and used those functions wouldn’t I be expecting an uneven frequency response as a result?

I always wondered one thing, how about amps that are designed to give a specific characteristic of sound. Emphasize certain frequency on purpose? using Krell as an example. Their amps are known to be rather neutral and cold. Not everyone likes it. However, they have changed more recently to appeal to more pple. Wouldnt this be a design characteristic instead?
 

Spkrdctr

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Got a buckeye amps on the way, 500W. I'll let you know how it works. Already sold this amp for a profit

Please let us know how you like the new amp. Give us a review of what you think about the performance in all the areas that you were lacking. Most people never get back on the forum and report the "new" equipment experience. But, most all of us will want to hear your opinion and comparison. Thanks! I still think with 500 watts you are all set for a very, very long time!
 

ahofer

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Ah ha, exactly, the lady has exactly my review as well - Denon is laid back, CA is pushed forward.

How can amps all sound the same if we come to the same conclusions? Something is grossly wrong here.

This isn't inconsistent with the possibility of underpowered (or intentionally non-linear, or high output impedance) amps altering the frequency balance. Most of the terminology you hear, such as "pushed forward" can be attributed to a (de)emphasis in certain frequencies. Somebody here once posted a lovely diagram of common audio impressions (forward, chesty, honky, muffled) and the range of frequency (de) emphasis to which they correspond.
 
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simplywyn

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This isn't inconsistent with the possibility of underpowered (or intentionally non-linear, or high output impedance) amps altering the frequency balance. Most of the terminology you hear, such as "pushed forward" can be attributed to a (de)emphasis in certain frequencies. Somebody here once posted a lovely diagram of common audio impressions (forward, chesty, honky, muffled) and the range of frequency (de) emphasis to which they correspond.

Would you be able to find this?
 
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simplywyn

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Please let us know how you like the new amp. Give us a review of what you think about the performance in all the areas that you were lacking. Most people never get back on the forum and report the "new" equipment experience. But, most all of us will want to hear your opinion and comparison. Thanks! I still think with 500 watts you are all set for a very, very long time!

I will post a full indepth amateur review, and everyone will tell me to level set and volume match or something lol.
 

Tim Link

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I'm going to pipe in here about my experience with amps sounding very different on the same speakers. These were cheap multichannel receivers using chip amps back in the early 2000s. One was a Panasonic PurePath digital amp, the other a JVC digital amp. The Texas Instruments PurePath had no feedback, as far as I know. I guess that makes the amp technically at fault, but man did it have weak bass compared to the JVC, which had both digital and analog feedback. I didn't have in-depth measuring software like REW at the time, but I had a Behringer EQ with a calibrated microphone, and both of them were EQ'd equally using pink noise. The JVC blasted my socks off with how much more forceful and impactful the bass was, at any volume level. The lack of feedback in the Panasonic amp explains that, I think. But it's odd that I couldn't correct it by making the response curve look the same with EQ. If I had those amps again I'd test them at various volume levels. It could be that I tested only at fairly low levels, and at higher levels I might have seen the Panasonic drooping in the bass. Or it may have been that the JVC had better deep bass extension and I wasn't seeing that on the RTA.
 

ahofer

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Would you be able to find this?

I tried a few different search strings, but so far no luck. If I remembered who posted it, maybe.

It was a graphical representation of ideas like this, sort of: https://abletunes.com/blog/eq-cheat-sheet/

I can't remember, but "forward" may correspond to relative emphasis of the "presence" range (4-6Khz). I'm sure the engineers on the site can chime in.
 
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Colonel7

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I tried a few different search strings, but so far no luck. If I remembered who posted it, maybe.

It was a graphical representation of ideas like this, sort of: https://abletunes.com/blog/eq-cheat-sheet/

I can't remember, but "forward" may correspond to relative emphasis of the "presence" range (4-6Khz). I'm sure the engineers on the site can chime in.[/QUOTE
1614637989068.png
courtesy of solderdude
 

krabapple

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For amplifier, as it has been used in this thread, no - you haven’t fixed it and I suggest you read back to the statement I was describing.

if I owned one of the integrated amps listed here that have tone controls or equalisation and used those functions wouldn’t I be expecting an uneven frequency response as a result?

Do you often compare two amps by adjusting their volume and/or tone controls differently?

Words fail me. :rolleyes:
 

krabapple

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I always wondered one thing, how about amps that are designed to give a specific characteristic of sound. Emphasize certain frequency on purpose? using Krell as an example. Their amps are known to be rather neutral and cold. Not everyone likes it. However, they have changed more recently to appeal to more pple. Wouldnt this be a design characteristic instead?


Please point us to bench test results -- not ad copy -- that support this fascinating claim.
 

krabapple

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Ah ha, exactly, the lady has exactly my review as well - Denon is laid back, CA is pushed forward.

How can amps all sound the same if we come to the same conclusions? Something is grossly wrong here.


You got that right.

What's grossly wrong are the farcical methods used in such 'reviews', and the fact that so many hobbyists take them seriously.
 

krabapple

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I will post a full indepth amateur review, and everyone will tell me to level set and volume match or something lol.

Gee, why would people on a site called Audio Science Review do such a mean thing?
 

escksu

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Please point us to bench test results -- not ad copy -- that support this fascinating claim.

I have both S-300i and 300IL. While they are low end krells, they still share some of the characteristcs with their high end counterparts, esp. on the neutral part. Not everyone likes it.

So, these are my own experiences. You do not have to believe in them.
 

krabapple

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I have both S-300i and 300IL. While they are low end krells, they still share some of the characteristcs with their high end counterparts, esp. on the neutral part. Not everyone likes it.

So, these are my own experiences. You do not have to believe in them.

So, your claim that Krell solid state amps have gone from 'neutral' to 'colored' sounding , is entirely anecdotal. Thanks.
 

Galliardist

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Do you often compare two amps by adjusting their volume and/or tone controls differently?

Words fail me. :rolleyes:
As it happens I have done just that back in the day - specifically, in a group testing the effects of different loudness switches at low volume. I’ve not owned an amp with one (or tone controls) for years, but I understand why a flat response may not be the only answer to amp design, as long as it’s honestly done.
I expect most people will prefer a neutral and accurately balanced amp. I believe that’s what the research says. Nobody has shown a magic alternative that always sounds better, but there’s no reason not to allow people to prefer something different, as long as the difference and the reasoning are honestly set out without subjectivist hyperbola.
 

Propheticus

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...they still share some of the characteristcs with their high end counterparts, esp. on the neutral part. Not everyone likes it.
Then you apply EQ. At least you have control over this. You can tweak it precisely as you like it without every adjustment costing you hundreds or thousands just to buy another amp with a different characteristic.
The purpose of an amplifier is to amplify what is fed to it, not to alter. Why would you want a fixed built-in 'EQ' of which you do not know the exact characteristics? Even worse when it fluctuates with volume or is load-dependant.

@Galliardist
Yes tone controls and (dynamic) loudness are a thing, but a fair comparison between amps is leaving those at their off / neutral position.
 
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escksu

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As it happens I have done just that back in the day - specifically, in a group testing the effects of different loudness switches at low volume. I’ve not owned an amp with one (or tone controls) for years, but I understand why a flat response may not be the only answer to amp design, as long as it’s honestly done.
I expect most people will prefer a neutral and accurately balanced amp. I believe that’s what the research says. Nobody has shown a magic alternative that always sounds better, but there’s no reason not to allow people to prefer something different, as long as the difference and the reasoning are honestly set out without subjectivist hyperbola.

Perhaps you could point me to a credible research that supports your pov.
 

krabapple

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As it happens I have done just that back in the day - specifically, in a group testing the effects of different loudness switches at low volume. I’ve not owned an amp with one (or tone controls) for years, but I understand why a flat response may not be the only answer to amp design, as long as it’s honestly done.

Integrated amp/preamps with tone controls are not 'designed' to not have flat response. They are designed to allow the user to EQ to taste.
 
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