subwoofer discussion

[carewser]

Since I own 10 of them I thought it would be interesting to discuss the different designs and features of subwoofers. One thing I don't like are downward-firing subs (even though 4 of mine are designed this way) because I can't see the driver move which is something i've always enjoyed so I just plop those ones on their sides. I've never heard any difference from doing this either so why some are downward-firing is beyond me other than to possibly increase the feeling on the floor of the bass but I live in a basement with a concrete floor so it doesn't matter anyway. I also have two that are sealed inside their enclosures so I can't watch them move and one that has dual passive radiators instead of a port like most of the others and one that has no port so I have almost every possible design one can have in subwoofers. I have some with little rubber feet and some without although feet are definitely becoming more popular. As far as surrounds go, 7 have foam surrounds and 2 have rubber surrounds and every single driver is paper. All are active/powered with 8 having plate amps while two have cooling fins. I don't know which type of amps they all have but I expect whichever is cheapest since none of my subs are expensive. Only one of my subs has the standard nobs and buttons found on the back (volume/crossover/phase) and the only nob that matters is the volume button. Why anyone would set the crossover to anything but the lowest is beyond me and the phase button does nothing. I actually wish it didn't have a volume nob because I never know what the proper setting is as it seems to change depending on the recording and it's not like there aren't other ways to add bass. The most common complaint amongst subwoofers is the chuffing sound from the port (which is why some are acoustic suspension) but i've never heard chuffing from any of mine so I don't know what people are talking about but I had a friend once tell me he could hear chuffing

Let's hear about your subs (which i'm sure are better/more expensive than mine)

 

[Koloth]

so you're kinda into subs, huh?

 

[sigbergaudio]

I'm intrigued.

 

[Beershaun]

Phase and crossover matter. Here is a good whitepaper on how you'd use them manually if you don't have an integrated amp or AVR that handles that upstream.

@carewser if you haven't tried the techniques in this whitepaper before try them out and see what you think and if any of your subs do better or worse than others. With 10 you are in a pretty interesting position to cross compare different features to see what the actual difference it.
https://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

Maybe pick up a umik-1 microphone and install REW on your laptop and start measuring the differences between them all in your particular room and share with the group. That would be a pretty cool set of findings.

 

[escape2]

Why anyone would set the crossover to anything but the lowest is beyond me

Is this a joke?

For receivers/amps with no bass management, the crossover knob needs to be set at a crossover point where it most seamlessly integrates with your main speakers.
For AVRs with bass management, the crossover knob needs to be set to the HIGHEST point so that it does not interfere with AVR's own bass management.

 

[Beershaun]

I have 2 SVS-SB2000s. I love them. They are in 2 separate 2.1 systems but I would never want to go without a subwoofer in my system again. Even if I had Amir's setup.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Phase and crossover matter.

Hmm.. when I integrated my sub, I was so excited about it's EQ etc that I completely forgot about phase adjustment. Integration worked perfectly. Either Dirac took care of it (no bass management though=) or I simply got lucky, leaving in the standard setting.

Probably the latter because I could not see any dip/peak at the crossover region even when I run it w/o Dirac.

I agree with the "never again w/o a sub" sentiment though. That effortlessness and quality in the bass coupled with having virtually limitless headroom w/o ever having to worry about the drivers of my mains is simply wonderful.

 

[Beershaun]

Hmm.. when I integrated my sub, I was so excited about it's EQ etc that I completely forgot about phase adjustment. Integration worked perfectly. Either Dirac took care of it (no bass management though=) or I simply got lucky, leaving in the standard setting.

Probably the latter because I could not see any dip/peak at the crossover region even when I run it w/o Dirac.

I agree with the "never again w/o a sub" sentiment though. That effortlessness and quality in the bass coupled with having virtually limitless headroom w/o ever having to worry about the drivers of my mains is simply wonderful.

Dirac may take care of the phase for you with calculating speaker delays. The whitepaper I posted goes into more detail and explains it better than I can.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I have 5 subs currently in use.

Two 10" sealed.
One 12" sealed.
One 15" sealed.
One twin 15" sealed.

My favorite for music is the pair of 10" sealed Paradigm Seismic 110.

My favorite for movie is my twin 15" Seaton Submersive F2.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have come to espouse and now am coming to a better understanding with Earl Geddes view on subwoofers. In a few words:
Mandatory.
Multiple as in more than one, is recommended.
Bass under 80 Hz is mono.
Phase is not an issue to worry about. Our hearing apparatus take up to 50 ms to even recognize a 50 Hz signal.
The subwoofers can be different in a multi-subs system.

My personal views:
Multiple subs if you can, rather than one or even a pair of superlative subs. Of course you need to have the space to accommodate the subs but... I was supposed to run a full Geddes multi-subs but can't find the will to do it. I am presently running a scheme suggested by @Chromatischism: One woofer in the front wall middle and another in the rear wall middle... Leave everything to Audyssey, measure with REW and tweak a bit. I am very pleased with my system bass performance with a pair of Dayton SUB-1500 "El Cheapo" subs. The most perplexing thing is that the subs are ran at the same level by the Audyssey App, yet, no one has been able to detected the presence of a subwoofer in the back. Mains are crossed at 80 Hz... Rather than replacing the subs, I will add to them and control the lot (2 more) with a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD just for the bass.

Peace.

 

[carewser]

so you're kinda into subs, huh?

Maybe a little bit

 

[carewser]

Is this a joke?

For receivers/amps with no bass management, the crossover knob needs to be set at a crossover point where it most seamlessly integrates with your main speakers.
For AVRs with bass management, the crossover knob needs to be set to the HIGHEST point so that it does not interfere with AVR's own bass management.

I said, all my subs are active/powered, I don't even own a separate amp/receiver

 

[sigbergaudio]

Phase and crossover matter. Here is a good whitepaper on how you'd use them manually if you don't have an integrated amp or AVR that handles that upstream.

@carewser if you haven't tried the techniques in this whitepaper before try them out and see what you think and if any of your subs do better or worse than others. With 10 you are in a pretty interesting position to cross compare different features to see what the actual difference it.
https://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

Good article. As he points out, phase correction on the subwoofer isn't really possible in a meaningful way, since the subwoofer is typically already delayed. The best way to handle this is a processor that can do this upstream, or set yourself up to minimize phase problems (sealed subwoofers, sealed speakers, a system with as low latency as possible).

 

[escape2]

I said, all my subs are active/powered, I don't even own a separate amp/receiver

What I wrote about the crossover knob still applies.

 

[Beershaun]

Good article. As he points out, phase correction on the subwoofer isn't really possible in a meaningful way, since the subwoofer is typically already delayed. The best way to handle this is a processor that can do this upstream, or set yourself up to minimize phase problems (sealed subwoofers, sealed speakers, a system with as low latency as possible).

Right. It's main use is blending with other speakers in the crossover frequency band to create a flat response in the listening position.

 

[estuardo4]

Hi


The subwoofers can be different in a multi-subs system.


Peace.

I find this point really interesting. I already have an old RBH 10" ported sub on my system, and I want to add a second sub, but the problem is that I won't be able to find the same RBH sub model. If I want to add a second one, different model, do the new sub has to be 10"? Or can I go to a bigger diameter? My listening room is 4 by 3 meters. Thank you for your answer.

 

[Beershaun]

I find this point really interesting. I already have an old RBH 10" ported sub on my system, and I want to add a second sub, but the problem is that I won't be able to find the same RBH sub model. If I want to add a second one, different model, do the new sub has to be 10"? Or can I go to a bigger diameter? My listening room is 4 by 3 meters. Thank you for your answer.

As long as your system can equalize them independently to produce the summed response at the listening position you should be able to. What room correction or DSP software would you use to perform room correction?

 

[estuardo4]

As long as your system can equalize them independently to produce the summed response at the listening position you should be able to. What room correction or DSP software would you use to perform room correction?

Thank you for your answer. I have Anthem Room Correction (ARC) included in my Paradigm PW-AMP. I'm only interested on a 2.1 system (80% music and 20% movies)

 

[antennaguru]

On my reference system (room is 21.5 feet X 17.5 feet with a reinforced wood floor) I am using the subwoofer towers from the Infinity IRS Beta System, which are two stereo subwoofer towers about man height with 4 X 12 inch carbon fiber woofers each in sealed enclosures. One woofer in each tower has an accelerometer mounted to it and a special signal cable to provide feedback from the accelerometer to the single system subwoofer controller which has many system integration settings and also compares the woofer movement to the input signal in order to provide more accurate deep bass. The subwoofer controller gets its main input signal from a single ended connection at the system line stage preamp. The output of the subwoofer controller drives two Class D (IcePower) amplifiers to drive the subwoofers. The system line stage balanced output connection is used to drive the main system Class AB amplifier to drive the main speakers, which are very efficient dynamic Open Baffle speakers of my design. These main speakers both outperformed and have proven much more reliable than the former OEM main speakers of the IRS Beta System. In addition to the main speakers and main subwoofers, that system also has a small additional subwoofer (an active M&K push-pull sealed cabinet with a pair of 8 inch woofers) that is positioned to the side of and slightly behind the listening position. This combination of subwoofers provides deep accurate bass similar to a live performance, that at times you feel in your chest and stomach, and is immersive and contributes to the deep soundstage of that system. It is the best subwoofer system that I have ever heard (or not heard as the sound always seems to come from the main speakers). I also have a half dozen other audio systems with one or two cube type subwoofers each, and there really is no comparison to the reference system's bass when it comes to re-creating a live performance.

 

[AudioSQ]

I have a Dayton RS 18" tuned to 18hz, and 9 cheap JBL 12s. All diy and EQ'ed flat. At reasonable to a little loud volumes it sounds great. If I try to 'show off', like make your eyes blurry, I haven't figured out how to tame the bass yet. I don't know if it's box resonance, room resonance or what. Since I rarely show off it hasn't been a big deal, but it does kind of suck when I'm like "check out what it can do!".. sound like butt, that's what. The clipping lights on the amp aren't going off and the subs aren't moving a ton.. anyways, those 5 minutes a year are just disappointing.