Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

[Newman]

We have to consider the possibility that we are observing and experiencing an example of shared confirmation bias. Sure, we are prone to assume it's in the sound waves, but the science of human perception says it's a mistake to underestimate what happens in sighted listening that is not about the sound waves.

I once set up a sighted, switch-over test between my monitor-based sat-sub system, and my horn-based 4-way active system (with EQ to broadly similar tonality), matched overall SPL, and even at low volumes one listener said, "not a small increase in dynamics there". Subjectively, I wanted to agree.

OTOH it's not a bad thing, if the very sight and knowledge of a big, bold, high-e setup, and its reputation, causes us to generate a common experience of high "jump-factor".

Side note: to anyone technical, the word dynamic is not the right one here, and will cause debate about maximum SPLs, which is not the subjective characteristic that we want to discuss here. I like Holt's "jump factor".

 

[LTig]

I noted the same "higher dynamics" when I listened to big horn speakers the first time in my life (Avantgarde Acoustic Trio - the very first classic version). I was used to Magnepan 1.6 back then.

However I felt the same when I switched from those Maggies to active 3-way studio monitors (K&H O300D, successor of Neumann KH310). And on Highend 2019 in Munich I listened to several horn systems, also in the big room of Avantgarde Acoustic, and did not note anything special regarding dynamics.

Even the tiny Genelec 8020a deliver stunning dynamics if you sit close enough - if you want to shock innocent people play Tricicyle by Flim and the BBs as loud as the speakers can handle.

Could it be that the crossover of passive speakers causes a loss of dynamic? The use of iron core inductivities could be a hint.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Could it be that the crossover of passive speakers causes a loss of dynamic? The use of iron core inductivities could be a hint.

I don't think crossover components would have much to do with it.

Personally, I don't so much get a sense of increased 'dynamics' with horns - I would say that horns give a better sense of immediacy i.e. that the performers are present in the room compared to other speaker types, which tend to sound sort of 'distant' or 'detached' comparatively.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

That’s an interesting idea.

And this - radiation pattern - is of course the loudspeaker part of those room reflections I keep repeating and boring you with. A narrow pattern will reduce very early reflections, but really do not reduce decay slope - exactly what we want.

But speaker position and room acoustics and room size also affect this.

Look at these 2 decay profiles, both at 470Hz, left is speaker with full-range pattern control placed close to room boundaries in a small properly treated room, right is a trad speaker placed far from boundaries in a larger virtually nontreated room - we see pattern control and proper acoustics makes a huuuuge difference:

 

[mhardy6647]

I wonder if this is why I've found every compression driver based speaker I've used to be kind of shouty?

Yup.

There are good horns and bad horns. Col. Klipsch and his company, sadly, were masters of the latter. Altec produced a number of the former (and some of the latter, too) -- the good ones are, at this late date, astronomically priced.

Dollar for dollar, inch for inch, pound for pound: I do like my rather unassuming little EMILAR EH500-2 horns in terms of finesse-- but they've gotten to be pretty pricey, too, in recent years.

DSC_6853 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(with EMILAR 1" to 2" throat adaptor)

DSC_0144 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(with a 2" driver)

If I had more than one extra kidney to sell, I'd be lookin' - hard - for a pair of Altec 1505 multicells, though.

 

[Newman]

I have a lot of experience with wonderful horns and have used them at home for decades. Yet my every experience of a classic Klipsch has been strongly negative.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Yup.
Altec produced a number of the former (and some of the latter, too) -- the good ones are, at this late date, astronomically priced.

I use the Altec 511B horn which in its native state is not all that great since it rings like a bell when excited by certain frequencies. But a liberal application of Aquaplas (Bondo works too) of about 1/2 - 3/4" to the complete exterior makes them completely inert and they sound great.

I got immersed in all things Altec when I was an engineer for several years at their Anaheim facility before they went belly up. I got to talk at length to some of the people responsible for their classic designs, and made several of my personal drivers myself at their factory. All was good.

 

[antennaguru]

A very experienced audiophile on another forum recently asserted that high-efficiency speakers were inherently more dynamic than other types. By high-efficiency I believe he meant >92 dB sensitivity; by "dynamic" I believe he meant more brilliant response to transient signals.

Do hi-eff speakers inherently have better dynamics?

IMO yes, if they can play loud as well as being efficient, and do so without noticeable compression/distortion.

 

[Wseaton]

Let's look at the opposite extreme. Low efficiency speakers are that way because the designer is trying to solve a specific problem. The speakers efficiency is only as good as the least efficient driver. Tweeters can be juiced up with wave guides or using horns. Midranges are limited in this respect.

Mirage and older B&Ws are on this list. Mirage easily has the worst dynamic clarity of any speaker Ive auditioned in a showroom and Bowers and Wilkins isn't exactly known for rousing presentations. At the least not the ones surrounded in controversy.

I had a pair of Legacy Focus for awhile and I think those were 98db, which is astonishing for a non horn speaker. They achieved the high efficiency via huge amounts of piston area. Dynamic clarity was draw dropping.

 

[mhardy6647]

The WE/Altec 32 series was/were well behaved little horns -- but the secret got out on those a long time ago; prices on the used market are outrageous, especially for the plastic ones.
I had a mismatched pair that I acquired quite inexpensively and ultimately swapped one plastic (32B or C, the C is "ribbed") for one aluminum (32A) with someone else in the same boat.

bent altecs with RH drivers by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(aluminum on the left, plastic on the right)

https://electravolt.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-tale-of-three-horns-variations-of.html
https://jelabs.blogspot.com/2018/02/altec-32a-32b-emilar-eh1210-eh800-eh500.html

My 511Bs are long gone (and I don't get rid of much, as y'all've likely noticed).
All in all the EH500B was so much more appealing audibly to me. The really nice thing about 511Bs is that they're cheap ($75 for my pair some years back).


DSC_7275 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

All of the small-ish horns we've been discussing in these last few posts sound better when securely mounted to substantial baffles, too.
(not that I have done so... )

 

[MattHooper]

I don't think crossover components would have much to do with it.

Personally, I don't so much get a sense of increased 'dynamics' with horns - I would say that horns give a better sense of immediacy i.e. that the performers are present in the room compared to other speaker types, which tend to sound sort of 'distant' or 'detached' comparatively.

That's been my experience, limited as it is, with horn based speakers.

Like some here, I don't want to jump to presuming horn speakers "do that better" in some objective way and why they do, before someone manages to untangle that issue in the measurements.

But subjectively that "jump" factor seems to be there, also at the "macro dynamic" level. An example being guitar picking, electric and acoustic.
My friend has Klipsch La Scala speakers at the moment, among others, and I played some of my own tracks and he played some on the Klipsch. To both of us there was this consistent sense of an added "life energy" of realism. Those fine gradations of one string plucked harder than another even in rapid succession that just seemed to translate the life like energy of the musician more realistically. I played the same tracks on some other speakers (including mine at home) and just didn't get quite that same effect.

Last night I was passing a street performer playing acoustic guitar. I stopped and listened with my eyes closed, as I always do, to take in what characteristics of "live instruments" stick out to me. "What makes this sound unquestionably live?" One aspect was that "micro dynamic" life where the force of each individual string pluck seemed more varied and distinct, stuck out to me. The same quality I seemed to hear from those horn speakers.

 

[Thomas_A]

And this - radiation pattern - is of course the loudspeaker part of those room reflections I keep repeating and boring you with. A narrow pattern will reduce very early reflections, but really do not reduce decay slope - exactly what we want.

But speaker position and room acoustics and room size also affect this.

Look at these 2 decay profiles, both at 470Hz, left is speaker with full-range pattern control placed close to room boundaries in a small properly treated room, right is a trad speaker placed far from boundaries in a larger virtually nontreated room - we see pattern control and kproper acoustics makes a huuuuge difference:
View attachment 149017

Agee. Decay profiles at LP would be the measurement to do. My experience with dynamics relate to near-wall placement and moderate acoustic treatment especially at the speaker position area. It just gives more silence in the quiet parts and faster decay of transient events. There is an sense of decreased loudness and need for more amplifier power.

The experiment is quite easy to do.

 

[ppataki]

Agee. Decay profiles at LP would be the measurement to do. My experience with dynamics relate to near-wall placement and moderate acoustic treatment especially at the speaker position area. It just gives more silence in the quiet parts and faster decay of transient events. There is an sense of decreased loudness and need for more amplifier power.

The experiment is quite easy to do.

Just to check if I understand this correctly: does it mean that from this perspective best is to put the speakers in the front corners (or close to the front walls at least) and apply broadband absorbers right next to them?

 

[abdo123]

I feel like my response is not really adding much into this conversation but it might be relevant to some.

I really think the majority of people don't have enough wattage, or have little speakers (or worse no subwoofers) that can not handle the Wattage. Add in some EQ to take more of what little headroom there is and bam. these high sensitivity speakers sure do sound much more dynamic right now!

I really love horns! However the size requirements for a constant directivity horn with controlled directivity both horizontally and vertically to ~200Hz or so are enormous. other high senstivity options look like something out of a football stadium or an amateur cinema.

 

[Thomas_A]

Just to check if I understand this correctly: does it mean that from this perspective best is to put the speakers in the front corners (or close to the front walls at least) and apply broadband absorbers right next to them?

Perhaps not in the corners but speakers very near wall and broadband absorbers behind speakers. 1,5 meter wide covering from floor to roof.

 

[thewas]

A well designed horn loudspeaker can often sound more dynamic and direct mainly due to 2 reasons, higher directivity and thus direct sound percentage, meaning lower reflected sound and reverberation which sounds "slow" and also lower distortions, meaning cleaner sound which also sounds more direct.

 

[tuga]

Yup.

There are good horns and bad horns. Col. Klipsch and his company, sadly, were masters of the latter. Altec produced a number of the former (and some of the latter, too) -- the good ones are, at this late date, astronomically priced.

Dollar for dollar, inch for inch, pound for pound: I do like my rather unassuming little EMILAR EH500-2 horns in terms of finesse-- but they've gotten to be pretty pricey, too, in recent years.

DSC_6853 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(with EMILAR 1" to 2" throat adaptor)

DSC_0144 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
(with a 2" driver)

If I had more than one extra kidney to sell, I'd be lookin' - hard - for a pair of Altec 1505 multicells, though.

Are you time-aligning the drivers with DSP? I found this to make an audible difference when I played with a similar topology (compression tweeter, compression mid, woofer in bass bin).

 

[bo_knows]

That is where I am as well. I wish we could make progress on objective side, or prove that the subjective experience is wrong. We are in a bit of limbo here.

For me, I listened to low wattage tube amplifier driving horns at CES in a massive room which I cannot replicate with my Salon 2 speakers and massive amplification. This was the system and demo:

More recent experience has been no less than three JBL speakers that left me with that impression as well.

DANG!

 

[Purité Audio]

PA started with horns, I was ‘sold’ on the idea of greater dynamics a more lifelike presentation etc etc especially coupled with valve amplifiers, the valve amps lasted a few months, absolute rubbish, persisted with horns finishing with a four way semi-active set up, in my experience at least horns aren’t more ‘dynamic’ or lifelike, they have an odd dispersion pattern and usually no bass.
Having said that I would like to hear Tom Danleys new domestic designs here.


Keith

 

[Gorgonzola]

Let's look at the opposite extreme. Low efficiency speakers are that way because the designer is trying to solve a specific problem. The speakers efficiency is only as good as the least efficient driver. Tweeters can be juiced up with wave guides or using horns. Midranges are limited in this respect.

Mirage and older B&Ws are on this list. Mirage easily has the worst dynamic clarity of any speaker Ive auditioned in a showroom and Bowers and Wilkins isn't exactly known for rousing presentations. At the least not the ones surrounded in controversy.

I had a pair of Legacy Focus for awhile and I think those were 98db, which is astonishing for a non horn speaker. They achieved the high efficiency via huge amounts of piston area. Dynamic clarity was draw dropping.

Yes, speaking of older B&W's, I used a pair of B&W DM7's for quite a few years. I became increasingly dissatisfied with them for reasons I couldn't quite figure out. Finally after using other speakers, (which happened to be Paradigm), in another system, I finally twigged to the fact that that the DM7's just didn't have any sparkle, that is, "micro-dynamics" were miserably bad. I should mention that the DM7's were driven by a 200 wpc and usually at very moderate volumes so lack of power wasn't the issue.