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LS50 meta's plus sub vs More expensive speakers

Eternals

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Currently using my beloved (but aging gracefully) RTL3 speakers with Hegel h120. Room is 4m x 6.5m x 2.4m tall.
I listened to my kit at the shop with my preferred tracks to acclimate my ears to my setup in another room. Then all things unchanged, it tried a number of other speakers up to £2000 ($2800}. I utterley and completely loved the LS50 Meta's, BUT, it really felt like something was missing in the lower end. Not looking specifically for thunder everywhere, just that extra range to go with that beautiful and detailed experience.

Any views on speakers that can match or beat the LS50 meta's for the detail, precision etc., or, am I better looking at adding a sub to pair with the LS50 meta's? I'll be very grateful for views and experiences with your own comparisons.
 
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Eternals

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You mean dual subs right?
I am open to suggestions. Having never used a sub with my kit, my experiences are limited. I understand that the higher the crossover point, the more this affected the stereo / imaging.
 

alex-z

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All speakers benefit from using subwoofers, no matter how good they are.

1. Inter-modulation distortion. Every time you go down 1 octave, 4x the cone excursion is required for the same SPL. Cone excursion leads to IMD, adding a sub reduces cone excursion of the speakers.

2. Room modes. Speakers have optimal positioning for stereo imaging which does not align with optimal positioning for room mode reduction. 1 sub is good, 2 is great, 4 is superb.

3. Greater bass extension. Even the best tower speakers only go flat to about 30Hz. $600 subs can go flat to 20Hz.

If you pair the LS50 Meta with a pair of SVS PB-1000 Pro you should have an amazing sounding setup. Make sure to properly high-pass the speakers at 80Hz. Sadly the Hegel H120 lacks this basic feature, so you should implement an AV receiver or miniDSP 2x4HD to handle this.
 

hawk01

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+1 on the dual subs! no amount of expenditure for speakers can deliver the performance of dual subs properly integrated at the typical 80-100Hz region. dual subs may even cost lower than a legit fullrange speaker. i have threaded this path already and a humble AVR is enough to accomplish proper integration. i have revel M16 stereo pair which get boomy in the ~50Hz region by themselves. everything falls into place when i added dual SVS SB1000 and a yamaha AVR.
 

phoenixdogfan

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My set up is the LS 50 metas with a single SVS SB2000, and my original LS 50s as surrounds for when I play movies. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz. This is fairly new set up as I just got the Octo Research DAC 8, and I'm using JRiver as my surround processor and I've yet to integrate Dirac Live, but plan to in the next few days.

I can tell you the Metas sound absolutely great with the single sub. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz, and I played The Dark Knight soundtrack this afternoon. There's point on "Why So Serious?" where there's low sub 20 hz pulsations are played, and even with the single sub my windows literally rattled, so I don't know if I feel I need a second sub. Thing is, human hearing is quite insensitive to distortions below 100 hz. Such distortions almost have to be at levels greater than 100 percent before they become audible at all. Mostly, multi sub set ups are intended to provide even bass levels at different listening positions in a room, so multiple listeners can experience the bass levels the same way, rather than to minimize perceived bass distortions.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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My set up is the LS 50 metas with a single SVS SB2000, and my original LS 50s as surrounds for when I play movies. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz. This is fairly new set up as I just got the Octo Research DAC 8, and I'm using JRiver as my surround processor and I've yet to integrate Dirac Live, but plan to in the next few days.

I can tell you the Metas sound absolutely great with the single sub. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz, and I played The Dark Knight soundtrack this afternoon. There's point on "Why So Serious?" where there's low sub 20 hz pulsations are played, and even with the single sub my windows literally rattled, so I don't know if I feel I need a second sub. Thing is, human hearing is quite insensitive to distortions below 100 hz. Such distortions almost have to be at levels greater than 100 percent before they become audible at all. Mostly, multi sub set ups are intended to provide even bass levels at different listening positions in a room, so multiple listeners can experience the bass levels the same way, rather than to minimize perceived bass distortions.
2 subs are only for get more smoother FR in 20hz-100hz with subs, reduces modes :)
 
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Eternals

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All speakers benefit from using subwoofers, no matter how good they are.

1. Inter-modulation distortion. Every time you go down 1 octave, 4x the cone excursion is required for the same SPL. Cone excursion leads to IMD, adding a sub reduces cone excursion of the speakers.

2. Room modes. Speakers have optimal positioning for stereo imaging which does not align with optimal positioning for room mode reduction. 1 sub is good, 2 is great, 4 is superb.

3. Greater bass extension. Even the best tower speakers only go flat to about 30Hz. $600 subs can go flat to 20Hz.

If you pair the LS50 Meta with a pair of SVS PB-1000 Pro you should have an amazing sounding setup. Make sure to properly high-pass the speakers at 80Hz. Sadly the Hegel H120 lacks this basic feature, so you should implement an AV receiver or miniDSP 2x4HD to handle this.
Thank you alex-z, your advice really is very detailed and helpful. I've recently purchased the Hegel and it will remain on my credit card for a little while. I may have made an amplifier decision too early. Briefly reading around a new amp or miniiDSP seems to take me out of safe financial (and matrimonial) waters. Will read to read around your advice a little further.
 
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Eternals

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+1 on the dual subs! no amount of expenditure for speakers can deliver the performance of dual subs properly integrated at the typical 80-100Hz region. dual subs may even cost lower than a legit fullrange speaker. i have threaded this path already and a humble AVR is enough to accomplish proper integration. i have revel M16 stereo pair which get boomy in the ~50Hz region by themselves. everything falls into place when i added dual SVS SB1000 and a yamaha AVR.
Thanks Hawk01. This is helpful. My set up is intended for audio only, rather than surround. Will need to think carefully how to balance this desire and there will probably be a compromise somewhere.
 
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Eternals

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My set up is the LS 50 metas with a single SVS SB2000, and my original LS 50s as surrounds for when I play movies. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz. This is fairly new set up as I just got the Octo Research DAC 8, and I'm using JRiver as my surround processor and I've yet to integrate Dirac Live, but plan to in the next few days.

I can tell you the Metas sound absolutely great with the single sub. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz, and I played The Dark Knight soundtrack this afternoon. There's point on "Why So Serious?" where there's low sub 20 hz pulsations are played, and even with the single sub my windows literally rattled, so I don't know if I feel I need a second sub. Thing is, human hearing is quite insensitive to distortions below 100 hz. Such distortions almost have to be at levels greater than 100 percent before they become audible at all. Mostly, multi sub set ups are intended to provide even bass levels at different listening positions in a room, so multiple listeners can experience the bass levels the same way, rather than to minimize perceived bass distortions.
Thank you phoenixdogfan. My set up is intended for music, but your direction gives me food for thought. I'll have to test the options at the shop in the next few weeks to hear the differences using my current amp.
 

KMO

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I'd say don't run before you can walk. Don't attempt 2 subs before you've attempted 1.

And having the full crossover to ease the loads on the mains is ideal, but a sub is still really worthwhile just as a simple bass extension.

John Darko did a good video recently. It's nominally about the KEF KC62 subwoofer, which is probably out of your price bracket, but most of it's about basic subwoofer stuff, from a new-to-subwoofer perspective.

And he's specifically trying it with the LS50s, and comparing the simple addition with a full crossover (and with their standalone performance).

 
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Eternals

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The responses are marvelous and I wish that I'd read and been better informed before buying the Hegel. I took out half my budget with the amp as it just sounded that much better with my own and other speakers compared to the other amps at the shop. I'm now sure that subs are the way forward, but unclear how I'll make this happen with my remaining budget. More to consider
 
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Eternals

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I'd say don't run before you can walk. Don't attempt 2 subs before you've attempted 1.

And having the full crossover to ease the loads on the mains is ideal, but a sub is still really worthwhile just as a simple bass extension.

John Darko did a good video recently. It's nominally about the KEF KC62 subwoofer, which is probably out of your price bracket, but most of it's about basic subwoofer stuff, from a new-to-subwoofer perspective.

And he's specifically trying it with the LS50s, and comparing the simple addition with a full crossover (and with their standalone performance).

Thank you very much KMO. I'm about to leave for work, so need to wait until this evening to watch the video. It sounds like an option that better suits my finances for today and a good compromise from the title description.
 

alex-z

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I've recently purchased the Hegel and it will remain on my credit card for a little while. I may have made an amplifier decision too early. Briefly reading around a new amp or miniiDSP seems to take me out of safe financial (and matrimonial) waters. Will read to read around your advice a little further.

Is the amp returnable? The Hegel H120 is overpriced by its inclusion of an integrated streamer, not any technical merit.

An $80 amp with a $225 miniDSP 2x4HD is better than even a multi-thousand dollar amp. The ability to properly integrate subwoofers and apply room correction is far too valuable in the pursuit of good sound. This is why I give no weight to how an amplifier or speaker sounds in a showroom. Brain is too susceptible to confirmation bias, we think something sounds better because it should, but it doesn't once you own it long term
 

hawk01

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The responses are marvelous and I wish that I'd read and been better informed before buying the Hegel. I took out half my budget with the amp as it just sounded that much better with my own and other speakers compared to the other amps at the shop. I'm now sure that subs are the way forward, but unclear how I'll make this happen with my remaining budget. More to consider

i feel for you sir on buying the hegel! while it is highly capable at what it does, it fails miserably by not having proper bass management for your intended purpose. i also have a modestly capable integrated amp powering my revel M16s solely for audio but it is greatly outclassed by the humble yamaha AVR with dual subs and bass management. it is really THAT good! with this set up you do not need huge power for driving the speakers since it only plays >80Hz material. subs do the heavy lifitng. in my case, it also fixed the annoying boomy ~50Hz region since my subs are optimally positioned to address the room modes.
 

alex-z

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How do they justify the price tag on this? It's $3600.00 in Canada.

Without being too offensive, it integrates a DAC, amp, and streamer into a pretty package. Could someone create a similar end result for $1100 with a raspberry pi + SMSL SA400 + SMSL SU-9, absolutely. But as long as people buy the H120 it is justified, just like gold plated watches.
 

Doodski

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Without being too offensive, it integrates a DAC, amp, and streamer into a pretty package. Could someone create a similar end result for $1100 with a raspberry pi + SMSL SA400 + SMSL SU-9, absolutely. But as long as people buy the H120 it is justified, just like gold plated watches.
Geeech... With a little effort for sure a system could be put together for less money or the same and have something really capable.
 

KMO

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Thank you very much KMO. I'm about to leave for work, so need to wait until this evening to watch the video. It sounds like an option that better suits my finances for today and a good compromise from the title description.

Not sure I'd recommend the KC62 itself unless you really need something that small or pretty, or want to take advantage of its HPF, which I don't think you can with your Hegel. There are more cost-effective subs, particularly in the US. You're paying a lot for the small size.

(However I did go for its big brother the KF92 for my LS50 Metas - again largely on small + pretty grounds.)

But most of the "listening-impression" type stuff he talks about in that video would apply to any subwoofer added to the LS50s.
 
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