Why?

[tomtoo]

Is more better?
Is an upgrade that produces no audible improvement an uograde?

It could, think about a tube class a amp and a modern class d.

A modern class d needs less resources for building and is much more energy efficient. In this sense it would be an upgrade.

 

[Eidie]

No harm done. My first (and second) read of your OP was that it was critical rather than philosophical in nature. Implying we are all horrid excessive consumers chasing the unattainable and enjoying the consuming/ purchasing more than the enjoyment of the music.

I'll take you at your word that wasnt the intention, but still question how you expect to summarise what surely must be a whole different bundle of reasons for being here by the responses of anyone that replies directly.

There are at least 5 broad types of people on here I have observed, excluding the lurkers who never post:

1. The people who have landed here seeking help with an existing set up/ purchase
2. Those seeking the answer to the elusive question of "What DAC/Amp will be best for my [popular headphone model]?" Or broader advice around potential purchases/ reviews.
3. People on here for something to do/ read/ discuss- same as on any hobby related forum.
4. Those with actual knowledge/ involvement in the industry who may be here to converse with others like them and/ or support the amateurs. Easy to confuse those with actual knowledge and insight with the know it alls (lets call them subset 4a)
5. Lets not forget the beloved trolls.

Thank you Jimbob54.
I came here because I had a once in a lifetime opportunity. To build a high fidelity system that would be my endgame (really once in a lifetime). I used what I learnt and I have. It is not perfect (sad) but I am happy.
To all, yourself included, who’s posts have fed into that I am grateful.
Please could you clarify your second paragraph? You deserve an answer And I will attempt to do so.

 

[Eidie]

You didn't fail miserably - but the reason you're not getting the replies you're looking for is that this is not the ideal forum to pose the philosophical question you're posing.

The reason this is not the ideal forum is because ASR is precisely not about just buying more and more stuff all the time. The idea that certain DACs and amps are "essentially perfect" is an idea that many ASR members agree with and often actively promote. The constant consumption, the constant purchasing of new equipment on an endless "upgrade" cycle, is something stoked by manufacturers and by trade publications and forums that embrace a more subjectivist approach. The idea that a $300 - or even $150 - DAC can sound just as good as a $15,000 DAC is an idea that people at ASR are very much open to, and again will often activity state themselves. This idea, however, is not an idea that's likley to be widely believed at more subjectivist forums or in the pages of The Absolute Sound or Stereophile.

Now of course since this is a place where lots of equipment is tested, it does get people thinking about buying gear. But that's true of any hobby - or business, or whatever - involving goods that are produced and sold in a capitalist economy. I certainly agree with the idea - which comes from Marx, really - that capitalism essentially takes some of what makes us human and then forces us to work for wages so we can buy back that thing that has been taken from us. In some of his earlier writings, Marx says in effect that an essential part of being human is objectifying oneself in the world, in other words making things. In his view capitalism turns that human making of things into an alienated process of for-profit production and wage labor. Is that deep enough philosophically for you?

But back to ASR: to put it more simply, there is a thread here asking people to list gear they've bought because of Amir's reviews - but there's also another thread here asking folks to list gear they haven't bought, based on Amir's reviews. Most other places don't have that second kind of thread.

Thank you! Thank you!

I was not looking for a particular type of reply. Your’s, however, has given me an insight I wish I had had a week ago! I now see why I caused such insult. To all I truly am sorry. I had utterly failed to see the point you have made tmtomh. Whilst a long way from educated, a step closer. Thank you.

 

[Eidie]

"...You didn't fail miserably - but the reason you're not getting the replies you're looking for is that this is not the ideal forum to pose the philosophical question you're posing...."

I would be realy happy if someone could explain me the philosophical question behind? I just dont get it.

To be honest it feels strange. The OP has a topnotch system and asks isnt that enough? Thats like standing on mount everest and asking others why they climb mountans??? Iam sure it is not meant like this, but if someone asks about philosophy the person should first asks about own philosophy.

Thank you tomtoo, and a nice analogy.

You are right. I was trying, clumsily, to engender a debate about consumption. I have read many posts here essentially saying “I have this top-notch DAC but this one has a SINAD 2db better and it’s great”. It is inherent in a review site that much is about more.
I had a once in a lifetime chance to put together an endgame system. It won’t happen again. The criteria were:
SOTA measured performance amp and dac.
Will last, barring breakdown, 20 years.
The OP was never about what more for me. Maybe, according to some posters, I should have got the KEF R7s. But I didn’t. And I won’t. I am happy (with my system, not so much my social ability!).

 

[Eidie]

So is the $9 Apple dongle, yet you bought the RME ADI.. What a waste . And Don't tell me because of the EQ.. You can do that in software just fine. From a sustainability point of view, surely that is the best option.

Touche! Though will the dongle still work, and not be obsolete, in 20 years time. But still Touche!
I know I am a hypocrite.

 

[restorer-john]

You didn't fail miserably - but the reason you're not getting the replies you're looking for is that this is not the ideal forum to pose the philosophical question you're posing.

The reason this is not the ideal forum is because ASR is precisely not about just buying more and more stuff all the time. The idea that certain DACs and amps are "essentially perfect" is an idea that many ASR members agree with and often actively promote. The constant consumption, the constant purchasing of new equipment on an endless "upgrade" cycle, is something stoked by manufacturers and by trade publications and forums that embrace a more subjectivist approach. The idea that a $300 - or even $150 - DAC can sound just as good as a $15,000 DAC is an idea that people at ASR are very much open to, and again will often activity state themselves. This idea, however, is not an idea that's likley to be widely believed at more subjectivist forums or in the pages of The Absolute Sound or Stereophile.

Now of course since this is a place where lots of equipment is tested, it does get people thinking about buying gear. But that's true of any hobby - or business, or whatever - involving goods that are produced and sold in a capitalist economy. I certainly agree with the idea - which comes from Marx, really - that capitalism essentially takes some of what makes us human and then forces us to work for wages so we can buy back that thing that has been taken from us. In some of his earlier writings, Marx says in effect that an essential part of being human is objectifying oneself in the world, in other words making things. In his view capitalism turns that human making of things into an alienated process of for-profit production and wage labor. Is that deep enough philosophically for you?

But back to ASR: to put it more simply, there is a thread here asking people to list gear they've bought because of Amir's reviews - but there's also another thread here asking folks to list gear they haven't bought, based on Amir's reviews. Most other places don't have that second kind of thread.

Your best response ever. Well said.

 

[Eidie]

I do my small part to keep stuff outta the landfills (FWIW)...

View attachment 144120

Nice pad. There seems to be some weird spatial, and I assume temporal, stuff going on though.

 

[Eidie]

It's just human nature. Like, What is life? ... How many stars are there? ... Can I visit one before I die?
All unattainable but doesn't stop us from the wonder of it all.

42

 

[Eidie]

I'm "after" my ancestors in my existence, and will always need more stuff, particularly foodstuff, and whether I can or can't be happy with what I've achieved or have is yes and no, so no answer, thus the question is ultimately meaningless, perhaps like life?

"Just why" do pancake clocks benevolence a fish of sobriety even as unto an? Perhaps because purple aliens on the roof don't wear hats.

(I agree with whomever above said elaboration would be useful.)

On a separate note, not sure if it's what the OP intended, but I'm glad there are many people in this world who find it insufferable to be happy with what they have got, and instead rage against the cancerous patheticism parading as virtuous anti-consumerism that is complacency. Sure, emotionally there is something to be said for acknowledging positive things, and being happy to some extent with one's life, but constant striving for improvement is a good thing overall, and particularly in this hobby it's not like speakers go into a landfill just because someone upgrades, not to mention if a company spends billions on speakers, cars, rockets, etc. that money doesn't just disappear.


Perhaps this is meant more for a hoarding subreddit with plastic bag and Styrofoam based hobbies.

I suspect I will regret this.
Context.

 

[Eidie]

I look at it in the opposite way. Being here, and seeing the justification for affordable products, and the non-justification for expensive products, leads to less consumption.

Thanks to previous posters, reinforced by you, I have come to see this point. Thank you

 

[Eidie]

Your best response ever. Well said.

Totally agree. More educated now.

 

[tomtoo]

Thank you tomtoo, and a nice analogy.

You are right. I was trying, clumsily, to engender a debate about consumption. I have read many posts here essentially saying “I have this top-notch DAC but this one has a SINAD 2db better and it’s great”. It is inherent in a review site that much is about more.
I had a once in a lifetime chance to put together an endgame system. It won’t happen again. The criteria were:
SOTA measured performance amp and dac.
Will last, barring breakdown, 20 years.
The OP was never about what more for me. Maybe, according to some posters, I should have got the KEF R7s. But I didn’t. And I won’t. I am happy (with my system, not so much my social ability!).

To many objectivists with experience in here. They not hunt for the last 2dB sinad. Good systems start well before the topnotch sinad. Its a orientation, the same like a linear measuring speaker. If some get crazy if a amp has 0.002 or 0,004%Thd at 5W they dont see the picture and have to learn a littel more. But for this we have the chief fun officer @amirm. I think he does his best to explain thinks. But there is some learning needet that goes deeper than just comparing two numbers. And that needs some time.

 

[Eidie]

I think the answer to at least one of his questions must be "42". I could say "21" but that would be half-assed answer . . .

To lead with your favorite question: why? You’ve had some interesting answers and comments from quite a few major contributors plus loads of others. Seems like enough material to grok upon and come back with some new salient follow up questions, remarks and comments.

A fair question. Deserves an honest answer.

I have a degenerative neurological disorder. Amongst other things it effects my balance, vision and fine coordination. Some days I can see fine but I can’t make my fingers work a keyboard. Some, my fingers work but not my vision. Some days both of those work but the world is spinning, tossing and turning around me. Often I can’t walk properly. About the the only thing that does work, consistently, is hearing. Hence the decent hi-fi.
As an adjunct to the above I also have an exciting collection of anxiety disorders. I had read the initial responses to my the op and realized that I had been clumsy. Committed a faux pas. So I ran scared.
This evening I am functioning well. Hence the responses.
Everyone deserves a reply. Unfortunately sometimes that will be delayed.
This has taken a toll. One I will just have to pay.

 

[voodooless]

Glad to see you back on your virtual feet Eidie! Good that you didn’t bail on us.

I guess, your predicament should shine some different perspectives on the whole matter. Seems you have a larger stake in all this than most of us.

 

[Eidie]

Glad to see you back on your virtual feet Eidie! Good that you didn’t bail on us.

Thank you Voodooless.
This thread has been educational. I will try, and fail, but try agin to be less clumsy.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Thank you Voodooless.
This thread has been educational. I will try, and fail, but try agin to be less clumsy.

Nothing wrong with working through existential dread with your mates.
I suspect the point of it all is to gather like minds together.

In my shallow end of the gene pool divide the number of heads by two to count wits. We still manage to feel better, even if it's always the same.

"THAT’S MORTALS FOR YOU, Death continued. THEY’VE ONLY GOT A FEW YEARS IN THIS WORLD AND THEY SPEND THEM ALL IN MAKING THINGS COMPLICATED FOR THEMSELVES. FASCINATING.“

The inestimable Terry Pratchett writing in "Mort"

 

[Eidie]

To all who have responded to my OP, thank you.

I did not communicate well what I thought was my point.

To all who answered in spirit. Thank you.
To all who questioned. Thank you.
To all who answered, pissed off. Thank you.

I was not, am not, interested in causing upset. Just learning.

To all who answered. Thank you. I have learnt.

I will try to be less clumsy next time.

Is the sustainability of our hobby a debate worth having here?

 

[Eidie]

Nothing wrong with working through existential dread with your mates.
I suspect the point of it all is to gather like minds together.

In my shallow end of the gene pool divide the number of heads by two to count wits. We still manage to feel better, even if it's always the same.

"THAT’S MORTALS FOR YOU, Death continued. THEY’VE ONLY GOT A FEW YEARS IN THIS WORLD AND THEY SPEND THEM ALL IN MAKING THINGS COMPLICATED FOR THEMSELVES. FASCINATING.“

The inestimable Terry Pratchett writing in "Mort"

That, Jim, is gold! Thank you. Trying to respect everyone and reply in kind has been exhausting. You have given me a laugh. Thank you

 

[tomtoo]

To all who have responded to my OP, thank you.

I did not communicate well what I thought was my point.

To all who answered in spirit. Thank you.
To all who questioned. Thank you.
To all who answered, pissed off. Thank you.

I was not, am not, interested in causing upset. Just learning.

To all who answered. Thank you. I have learnt.

I will try to be less clumsy next time.

Is the sustainability of our hobby a debate worth having here?

Is the sustainability of our hobby a debate worth having here?

Absolutly! Why not? But it will be hard to find good answers.

 

[Eidie]

Is the sustainability of our hobby a debate worth having here?

Absolutly! Why not? But it will be hard to find good answers.

If we are just after good answers it’s not a debate. If we can engender thought well...