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Those of you who believe measurements aren't the whole story, do you have a hypothesis why that is?

amirm

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We can most accurately and powerfully measure change or differential between devices. People who doubt this have nothing to hang their hat on. Breath on a device and I can measure the impact! Try that with your ears. :)

Now, interpreting measurements and correlating them with sound is a different thing. Unfortunately subjectivists confuse these two things.

This distinction is super important. We can easily show how a lot of tweaks make no difference when our instrumentation shows no difference. This rules out frequency response/tonality, noise, jitter, etc. People say we can't measure this and that yet in the next breath say this tweak "lowers jitter" or "lowers noise floor." These are trivial things to measure.
 

amirm

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On imagine and spatial qualities, I can make *massive* differences in headphone listening by just changing the frequency response with EQ. Therefore, tonality and frequency response go pretty far in explaining this spatial quality. Channel separation in content is focused in certain range and so it is easy to impact it with frequency response errors. Bass for example is usually mono so EQ doesn't change things. Ultra high frequency is also harder to hear and not much of it exists in content. So no wonder that frequency response changes in say, 1 to 5 kHz make such a difference in spatial qualities.

This is trivial for everyone to try. All you need is a headphone and EQ.
 

TurbulentCalm

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I love these touchy technical audio threads.

It’s like watching a school of starving fish at feeding time, everyone vigorously swimming in, eager to be the next to post their contributions to the subject, while at the same time trying not to get eaten by those holding contrary opinions, causing the thread to becomes a glorious, violent froth of conjecture.

Just wonderful! A joy to behold… I’ll crawl back under my rock now …
 

Frgirard

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You are the next to post his contribution as you wrote.
When you eat fish, do you measure the cooking temperature?
 

TurbulentCalm

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You are the next to post his contribution as you wrote.
When you eat fish, do you measure the cooking temperature?

Hate eating fish! But I love keeping a few as pets and they like a steady 26°C water temperature so I keep an eye on that with a thermometer.

Now I really do have to get back to my rock. Cheers
 

escksu

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I love these touchy technical audio threads.

It’s like watching a school of starving fish at feeding time, everyone vigorously swimming in, eager to be the next to post their contributions to the subject, while at the same time trying not to get eaten by those holding contrary opinions, causing the thread to becomes a glorious, violent froth of conjecture.

Just wonderful! A joy to behold… I’ll crawl back under my rock now …

Haha, i would say i dont see any point in arguing over the internet... Its just a waste of time. Its not going to change anything too. If you cant accept what they said, well, just leave it to be. You dont gain anything from winning an argument on the net, neither do you lose anything if you lose. Spend your time on more meaningful things instead.
 

TurbulentCalm

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Haha, i would say i dont see any point in arguing over the internet... Its just a waste of time. Its not going to change anything too. If you cant accept what they said, well, just leave it to be. You dont gain anything from winning an argument on the net, neither do you lose anything if you lose. Spend your time on more meaningful things instead.

Yes, like the underside of rocks.
 
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gn77b

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Oh this again....
I don't know what you mean by this. I'm simply interested to hear a hypothesis coming from people disagreeing with the importance of measurements. Simply: if measurements are not all there is to it ore are downright useless, what is that something that explains what you hear? And by that something I don't mean vague statements like psychoacoustics are ignored, because they mean whatever the reader wants to mean. Which psychoacoustics phenomena do they actually refer to?
 

Andrew s

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You need to be careful with differential changes. When I change the illumination to my eyes by lifting my photochromic glasses the colour/tones in my visual field change obviously .

However, that does not mean my tone and colour perception is determined my my glasses. It is much more stable and I quickly adapt. The transmission of my glasses is only a small factor even though differentially it can have an apparently large effect.

In fact colour perception is very complex and depends on many things including the surrounding colour field. I suspect the creation of a stereo image is not dissimilar.

Regards Andrew
 

escksu

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I don't know what you mean by this. I'm simply interested to hear a hypothesis coming from people disagreeing with the importance of measurements. Simply: if measurements are not all there is to it ore are downright useless, what is that something that explains what you hear? And by that something I don't mean vague statements like psychoacoustics are ignored, because they mean whatever the reader wants to mean. Which psychoacoustics phenomena do they actually refer to?

This means it has been discussed countless times already. Also, most people here strongly believe in measurements (else they won't even be in here). If you want a different answer, you should post this in forums where pple don't believe in measurements instead.
 

escksu

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On imagine and spatial qualities, I can make *massive* differences in headphone listening by just changing the frequency response with EQ. Therefore, tonality and frequency response go pretty far in explaining this spatial quality. Channel separation in content is focused in certain range and so it is easy to impact it with frequency response errors. Bass for example is usually mono so EQ doesn't change things. Ultra high frequency is also harder to hear and not much of it exists in content. So no wonder that frequency response changes in say, 1 to 5 kHz make such a difference in spatial qualities.

This is trivial for everyone to try. All you need is a headphone and EQ.

Btw, making a change does not mean it can be measured. Just like on your imagine (image?) and spatial qualities, you can create a difference but can you measure how much is that difference? Can you quantify it objectively?

To date, I have never seen anyone who can say this is 100 units of spatial qualities while another device is 84 units, hence the one with 100 units is better. Instead I commonly read (even in this forum) one has better xxx over the other, or performs the same.
 
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gn77b

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This means it has been discussed countless times already. Also, most people here strongly believe in measurements (else they won't even be in here).
Firstly, I don't believe it's been discussed countless times. What has been done countless times is the rehashing of the old slogans: measurements are everything / no they're not. But like I said in my original post, I don't remember ever hearing a hypothesis about what isn't captured by typical measurements, only very vague statements. I'm hoping that someone will step out and launch such hypothesis.

Regarding this part:
If you want a different answer, you should post this in forums where pple don't believe in measurements instead.
You must be joking. You mean places like SBAF where everyone rejoices in the grumpy old man stereotype and where the founder of the forum clearly stated in the forum manifesto that it's a place where like minded people gather to comfort each other and moderation is pretty much arbitrary? You surely are joking.
 
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DonH56

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Anything that deals with humans esp. psychological part isnt as straight forward as making measurements and getting numbers. There are a whole lot of human related aspects that are simply not measurable.

Things like feelings. Even the simple feeling of joy, sad, pain, love etc.. We dont have a way to measure them. its not like you can connect a machine and know if the person is indeed feeling sad or rating on the sadness. We can only depend on how the individual's description and sometimes expression. Telling lies... Our so-called lie detectors are simply measuring how a normal person usually react when telling lies (elevated heart beats, feeling anxious etc). But they are those who are able to tell such a convincing lie you thought its the truth.

Regarding psyshoacoustics, perhaps you may come across a person thinking the sound appears from a certain place. But the sound isnt from there. Its what the brain perceived.

I'm a little confused, and curious... If imaging information is not in the source content (signal from the speakers), which should be measurable (however involved), then does the brain manufacture (synthesize) information that is not there? Feelings I can grasp as not being measurable, though often enough you can point to an external cause if present (some event in life), but figuring out an image from a pair of speakers it seems like you have only the signal from them plus whatever your brain provides. So your brain must add something (unmeasurable) to the signal, is that correct?

I confess I have always considering the sound field as calculable and measurable, especially since things like MATLAB and COMSOL plus more advanced measurement software became available, but again based upon very different image processing theory. And of course limited in complexity -- an arbitrary room is hard to calculate, though is usually measurable.

"Last night I saw, upon the stair, a little man who wasn't there..." - Don
 

rdenney

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...My understanding is that spin-o-rama analysis is something like 87% accurate in its predictions of loudspeaker preference among those loudspeakers whose measurements were used to derive the predictive algorithms. That's very good but not yet perfect. (What's going on with the other 13%?)
...

We are on shaky ground right off the bat (as I'm sure has already been observed). The preference prediction is just that--a model of preference based on (noisy) empirical data. These are not electronic measurements that demonstrate repeatable precision, but rather preference measurements that, while reliable in the larger sense, do not predict what any one person will prefer with great accuracy. As such, they are advice for manufacturers, not buyers.

(Electronics are a whole other category here, where their linearity (let's use the same term as opticians--modulation transfer function) is now very high, inaudibly distant from perfect. This assumes, of course, that a high modulation transfer is the objective, which most insist that it is, but which many who so assert it actually isn't. And there are circumstances where some equipment, particularly amplifiers, will not behave in their linear region, if misapplied to a given set of use cases.)

The preference model says this: People of all types prefer speakers with smooth and flat on-axis frequency response, couple with wide directivity to retain smooth and flat (but not necessarily horizontal) frequency response off-axis. Those characteristics are measured by the Spinorama. The model further demonstrates that people of all types like bass when it is present. Lots of speakers at all price points do that, but the differences are audible (unlike with most electronics) and therefore there is a lot of room for finer preference. But the main difference these days with speakers and amplifiers is what use cases they do and don't serve. That IS a matter of measurement.

Those manufacturers who insist that important characteristics can't be measured are telling us (though they would feign shock at the suggestion of it) that they are incapable of design, and just try stuff until it works. If anything can be designed, or even refined as a prototype, it can be measured.

Rick "it's all just algorithms, resistors, inductors, capacitors, transformers, and circuit boards" Denney
 

Andrew s

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The brain certainly creates our "image" of reality, it does this from a combination of current sensory data and what is in effect a model of reality it has created from all the internal and external sense data it has processed over the years and trial and error on interacting with this "reality".

If you had never seen or heard a violin before how could you hear one now without additional information?

It depends a bit on your philosophy of what reality is but you can't escape what we imagine it is is in the mind. That's why science has to work hard to generate objective data we can agree on rather than our predominantly subjective existance.

Regards Andrew
 

rdenney

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Yes, and there is the known relationship between in room and anechoic response. The in room should have a shallow downward tilt as frequency increases. This is the in room measure of an anechoicly flat speaker. ...

But that is a gozoutta, not a gozinta. The spectral tilt occurs because the off-axis response of the speaker is more directional at high frequencies, so high frequencies are not reflected by the room as much as low frequencies. It's what one expects in a normally reflective room from a speaker that is anechoically flat, not what one designs for.

This occurs with live music, too--the highest frequencies are most likely to be attenuated when reflected compared to the low frequencies.

And there is a very strong likelihood that it is a preference because it's what people are used to. Note that the preferred bass boost diminishes with experience in Toole's and Olive's work. It's still there, but not as much.

Another way to say it is that we may state that the speaker's job is to originate sound in a way similar to the source instruments, so that the room can affect it the same way it does for original instruments. But this is the wrong objective, because many of us want to hear the effect of the performance space in our non-performance space. If we listened to the instruments in an anechoic chamber, we'd hear what they sound like when truly flat. Take any ensemble and put it in the middle of a grassy field, and then listen. For most musicians, this is their worst nightmare.

I was listening to a recording of a world-class tuba player playing a Bach flute sonata, unaccompanied. (Piano accompaniment adds hard points that shake up the perceptions.) He was recorded in Powell Hall in St. Louis, with the microphones backed away enough to let the instrument's sound blend in the room (tuba players talk constantly about how it sounds "out front" versus "up close").

My wife came into the room and said--it sounds so much smoother on the recording than when you play. Well, duh. Setting aside the vast gulf between the skills of the performer and my own lack thereof, the reverberation of Powell Hall sounded to me like several seconds, while in my living room it's just a fraction of a second. We practice at home but can never hear (at home) how it sounds "out front".

So, I want some of the performance space to come through, and I want my own room to add as little as possible to it. Others may want their listening room to add more. I therefore rather prefer a bit less downward spectral tilt as what Toole's data suggests people prefer--that downward tilt, as Toole suggests, is naturally interpreted as room effects and filtered by our brains. Some might think my systems sounds bright. (Of course, my age-related hearing loss is a built-in low-pass filter).

I cannot imagine that these issues are unmeasurable.

Rick "not thinking the downward tilt is a target, per se" Denney
 
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gn77b

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- Measurements fail to predict imaging, much less spaciousness. Research by Wolfgang Klippel (cited by Floyd Toole) indicates that “the feeling of space” makes a 50% contribution to “naturalness” and a 70%(!) contribution to “pleasantness”. The virtual uselessness of measurements in this area is arguably a significant shortcoming if Klippel's findings are in the ballpark.
That's what I'm talking about, this is precisely the kind of answer I was hoping for. Didn't they attempt to understand why "Measurements fail to predict imaging"?
 

NTK

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How does a person know if the speaker the reviewer reviewed "sounds" the same as the one the person is buying?
You won't... it's a guide. Like everything purchased in life, caveat emptor.

JSmith
Perhaps I have should worded it differently. How about "How does a person know if the speaker the reviewer reviewed has any resemblance to the one the person is buying"?
 

egellings

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Phase angle vs frequency might show up imaging characteristics of speakers & electronic components, even if frequency amplitude response is flat in magnitude..
 

NTK

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First, we are talking about equipment for reproducing audio, so all your arguments are non-sequitur. But anyway ...

Give you a clue... musical instruments.
You really think musical instruments are built without using science or measurements?

Btw, alot more industries are human subjective based QC... Alcoholic drinks and tea for instance ...
OK. Wine making is the same as manufacturing speaker cables. So, we have grape harvest once a year, but how about speaker cable "harvest"? Once a week, once a day, once a shift? Alright! The brand A speaker cables vintage of 2020 week 34 are keepers; 2019 week 12, not so much o_O


Motorsports racing (esp. F1) is an even bigger one... It all depends on the race driver's feel, not measurements.
Then explain to me why would F1 teams waste money on wind tunnels, dynos, etc.
 
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