Arcam AVR390 or Denon 3600/3700/4700

[adidas2205]

You are right about that for speakers that actually produce the sound, but for the today's amplifiers that once you get pass the cheap low quality ones, they pretty much have no issues with slew rate/TIM, damping factors any more, and we know frequency response, distortions etc., are typically below the threshold of audibility. It is not to say they all sound the same, but there is no way the likes of X4700H would sound "horrible" compared to the AVR-390 if used well below their limit and in pure direct mode, especially if only analogs are used.

I have compared an AVR-X3400H, one level below and 3 model years older than the X4700H, with my separates, no such obvious SQ difference at all to me or others in the room. Also plotted graphs with REW, and they look virtually the same, not just FR but things like impulse response, decays time etc. etc. The graphs were much different if I used different speakers, predictably and obviously.

You're probably right.

 

[Artsfols]

You are right about that for speakers that actually produce the sound, but for the today's amplifiers that once you get pass the cheap low quality ones, they pretty much have no issues with slew rate/TIM, damping factors any more, and we know frequency response, distortions etc., are typically below the threshold of audibility. It is not to say they all sound the same, but there is no way the likes of X4700H would sound "horrible" compared to the AVR-390 if used well below their limit and in pure direct mode, especially if only analogs are used.

I have compared an AVR-X3400H, one level below and 3 model years older than the X4700H, with my separates, no such obvious SQ difference at all to me or others in the room. Also plotted graphs with REW, and they look virtually the same, not just FR but things like impulse response, decays time etc. etc. The graphs were much different if I used different speakers, predictably and obviously.

Your experience and sage advice are greatly appreciated and helpful. Thanks.

 

[adidas2205]

Arcam AVR10 played well only on the latest firmware. And I hope that he still has everything ahead of him. When I bought it, it had firmware 1.40 on it, I updated it to the latest version 1.46, and the difference was very noticeable. And as I was told by the guys who have been selling ARCAM on the first firmware for a long time, it sounded just awful. It was not possible to recommend it to customers. Now a little tweaked. I can only share the experience of comparing AVR390 and AVR10 1. English dryness is completely removed. It sounds completely different. It's like listening to a tube amp. 2. Removed the raised mid-range. In case someone needs it. And finally : since the release of the AVR10 firmware has been changed 18 times! I mean, the sound of it has changed dramatically...

 

[Artsfols]

You're probably right.

Did you run 'dirac' in the AV390?

 

[adidas2205]

Did you run 'dirac' in the AV390?

No

 

[anish]

I posted my observations as a first time Arcam (AVR20) user here

 

[Dickyd25]

New to the forum.
I'm looking at the arcam avr20, I've been doing some research and I see a lot of people talking about the buggs arcam is dealing with. With that being said and reading this thread. I'm still considering the purchase, not only for Dirac live but also the 16 channels of processing. Did the extra channels ever come into the equation when doing a comparison? I'm coming from a denon 6400 that I like but who doesn't want to add more speakers to their system.

 

[jojo626]

I have a denon AVR-x4300, a anthem mrx720, a arcam AVR550, a nad t778, denon is the worst. No mater how I adjust denon’s audyeesy, it is still worse than others, not even close.Don’t know the reason, maybe because of dirac or arc.

 

[peng]

I have a denon AVR-x4300, a anthem mrx720, a arcam AVR550, a nad t778, denon is the worst. No mater how I adjust denon’s audyeesy, it is still worse than others, not even close.Don’t know the reason, maybe because of dirac or arc.View attachment 143789View attachment 143790View attachment 143791View attachment 143792

Wow, 4 AVRs in the room simultaneously? I might have had 2 AVR and 1 AVP at the same time for a short period and I thought that was crazy.
It is so interesting that you actually could compare the effects on "sound quality" of 4 different REQ on 4 different AVRs under the same conditions (assuming...) in the same room, so I would like to give it shot and comment as follow.

First of all, I don't think anyone can tell why you are having such bad experience with Audyssey, relative to the others, other than the simple answer could be that Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT is just as bad as you think it is, or there could be other reasons or factors such as any of, or combinations of the following that I can think of:

a) Your did not follow instructions to the letter. (I guess that's not likely based on what you are saying, e.g. "no matter how I adjust....")
b) Something went wrong with you specific hardware.
c) Many forum chats might have given you the preconception that Dirac and AARC are superior.
d) You just don't like the bass being flattened (relatively speaking) in the low bass region, that Audyssey typically would do by default.

My guess is that c) and d) are the likely reasons, at least to a large extent. d) can be alleviated by using the $20 Mult EQ editor App to customize your target curve for the 20 to say 100 Hz range so that you can have a tilt in that range similar to the default Dirac or AARC target curve. It seems that most people would not like what Audyssey did in the low bass range, that it would make their system sounding "thin, bright.." etc. The MultEQ editor app also allow you to defeat the MRC, and limit the EQ range to below the room transition frequency that could be between 200 to 300 Hz in a small to medium size rooms. Dirac Live and AARC don't have the MRC thing, and both allows you to limit the EQ range without any add ons.

If c) is the main reason then there is no fix, once you expect it to be worst then it will be worst. Unless you can do a real apples to apples AB instant comparison following the strict protocol for conduct a double blind listening test session and if such a DBT did change your view, then your bias might be fixed/removed. Such DBT listening comparison would be extremely difficult, if even possible for most people to do in their room.

Did you find the Denon the worst too, in terms of "sound quality" that you perceived in direct mode (that is no EQ no nothing..)? Good thing you have 4, and you only have to like 1 of them lol.. The AVR-X4300H is still quite up to date so it should be easy to get rid of it.

 

[amper42]

I have a denon AVR-x4300, a anthem mrx720, a arcam AVR550, a nad t778, denon is the worst. No mater how I adjust denon’s audyeesy, it is still worse than others, not even close.Don’t know the reason, maybe because of dirac or arc.View attachment 143789View attachment 143790View attachment 143791View attachment 143792

Denon receivers have more configuration options and adjustable EQ settings than most. From direct/pure modes (without Audyssey) to using the Audyssey app and rat buddy to configure any FR response the user desires. Then add separate 2 channel settings from an array of multi-channel, Auro-3D and other modes and the options are significant. Once the user fully understands all the available settings - the Denon receiver sound can be adjusted to satisfy the bass head. the listener that wants a totally flat response or someone who enjoys the BBC curve. The biggest problem is first knowing what sound you like and 2nd understanding how to get there.

With my Hegel when you turn it on that's what you get. The Denon receiver in comparison has hundreds of different sounds available depending on the Audyssey, Dynamic EQ, and mode options selected. The Denon receiver is a chameleon.

 

[jojo626]

Wow, 4 AVRs in the room simultaneously? I might have had 2 AVR and 1 AVP at the same time for a short period and I thought that was crazy.
It is so interesting that you actually could compare the effects on "sound quality" of 4 different REQ on 4 different AVRs under the same conditions (assuming...) in the same room, so I would like to give it shot and comment as follow.

First of all, I don't think anyone can tell why you are having such bad experience with Audyssey, relative to the others, other than the simple answer could be that Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT is just as bad as you think it is, or there could be other reasons or factors such as any of, or combinations of the following that I can think of:

a) Your did not follow instructions to the letter. (I guess that's not likely based on what you are saying, e.g. "no matter how I adjust....")
b) Something went wrong with you specific hardware.
c) Many forum chats might have given you the preconception that Dirac and AARC are superior.
d) You just don't like the bass being flattened (relatively speaking) in the low bass region, that Audyssey typically would do by default.

My guess is that c) and d) are the likely reasons, at least to a large extent. d) can be alleviated by using the $20 Mult EQ editor App to customize your target curve for the 20 to say 100 Hz range so that you can have a tilt in that range similar to the default Dirac or AARC target curve. It seems that most people would not like what Audyssey did in the low bass range, that it would make their system sounding "thin, bright.." etc. The MultEQ editor app also allow you to defeat the MRC, and limit the EQ range to below the room transition frequency that could be between 200 to 300 Hz in a small to medium size rooms. Dirac Live and AARC don't have the MRC thing, and both allows you to limit the EQ range without any add ons.

If c) is the main reason then there is no fix, once you expect it to be worst then it will be worst. Unless you can do a real apples to apples AB instant comparison following the strict protocol for conduct a double blind listening test session and if such a DBT did change your view, then your bias might be fixed/removed. Such DBT listening comparison would be extremely difficult, if even possible for most people to do in their room.

Did you find the Denon the worst too, in terms of "sound quality" that you perceived in direct mode (that is no EQ no nothing..)? Good thing you have 4, and you only have to like 1 of them lol.. The AVR-X4300H is still quite up to date so it should be easy to get rid of it.

yes, in the same room, avr550 for 2 years, mrx720 for 6 month, 4300H for 1.5 years, nad t778 for 3 month, I have sold mrx720.
Thanks for your advice, I have used audyssey for many years, I also have audyssey multEQ app, and set them like dirac's default target curve,I tried many things to make it better. I want to see 4300H beat avr550.

I did compare them on direct mode, avr550>mrx720>t778>4300H.
I now use T778, once avr20 can upgrade HDMI2.1, I will buy one. avr550 and 4300H will be given to my friend.

 

[peng]

yes, in the same room, avr550 for 2 years, mrx720 for 6 month, 4300H for 1.5 years, nad t778 for 3 month, I have sold mrx720.
Thanks for your advice, I have used audyssey for many years, I also have audyssey multEQ app, and set them like dirac's default target curve,I tried many things to make it better. I want to see 4300H beat avr550.

I did compare them on direct mode, avr550>mrx720>t778>4300H.
I now use T778, once avr20 can upgrade HDMI2.1, I will buy one. avr550 and 4300H will be given to my friend.

If that's what it is for you then it is an easy choice for you. As I alluded to earlier, unless you comparison is done using a strict protocol to eliminate bias, the results would be anecdotal at best, aside from the fact that one's perceived better or worse sound quality vs the others are subjective. There are people who own multiple comparable products too and their assessment could be very different than yours.

 

[oupee]

yes, in the same room, avr550 for 2 years, mrx720 for 6 month, 4300H for 1.5 years, nad t778 for 3 month, I have sold mrx720.
Thanks for your advice, I have used audyssey for many years, I also have audyssey multEQ app, and set them like dirac's default target curve,I tried many things to make it better. I want to see 4300H beat avr550.

I did compare them on direct mode, avr550>mrx720>t778>4300H.
I now use T778, once avr20 can upgrade HDMI2.1, I will buy one. avr550 and 4300H will be given to my friend.

What is your opinion on NAD T778?

 

[jojo626]

What is your opinion on NAD T778?

wi-fi must via bluOS, sound is good, subvert my impression of class D, remote control need takes some time to get used to.