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Computer Optimization of Room Acoustics

oursmagenta

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Hello everyone,

I have a (maybe) silly question.

Is the room-speaker interaction mostly a linear phenomenon ?

Because if it is, we can assume that optimizing for the frequency response should be enough to treat the room (maybe at first order) right ?
And if not (akin to distortion arising from non-linearities in electro-mechanical systems like speakers or purely electric/electronic systems like in amplifiers, dac, etc ...) this attempts seems to be hmmm vain (or rather pretty difficult) ?
 
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abdo123

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Hello everyone,

I have a (maybe) silly question.

Is the room-speaker interaction mostly a linear phenomenon ?

Because if it is, we can assume that optimizing for the frequency response should be enough to treat the room (maybe at first order) right ?
And if not (akin to distortion arising from non-linearities in electro-mechanical systems like speakers or purely electric/electronic systems like in amplifiers, dac, etc ...) this attempts seems to be hmmm vain (or rather pretty difficult) ?

The term you’re looking for is linear directivity. Whether on-axis response follows a similar pattern as off-axis response.

Amir explains it nicely in the Genlec 8350 speaker review on YouTube. Or his interview with Stop the fomo.

And that characteristic depends on the speaker in question.
 

oursmagenta

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Thanks for both answer!

I started to dig up a bit the math behind this.

Coming from a computer graphics/image processing educational background, it feels like it is similar to image de-convolution or de-blurring which is usually an ill-posed problem, but that still have reasonable solutions under certains conditions.

So, back to the topic, this kind of processing should be able (to a certain extent) to solve for the speaker-boundary-interference-response issues?
 

johnp98

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There are no free programs that can do this sort of optimization eh? Has anyone played around with multi sub optimizer and what has been your experience with it?
 

win

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There are no free programs that can do this sort of optimization eh? Has anyone played around with multi sub optimizer and what has been your experience with it?

Yea it is amazing. I did it with 4 subs and was amazed at results. It does for bass what Dirac does for imaging.
 

redshift

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Amir; here’s an interesting two minute paper that discusses computer simulation of control volume interactions in liquid and gas. Don’t know if this is relevant. Perhaps some food for thought?

 

FrantzM

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Yea it is amazing. I did it with 4 subs and was amazed at results. It does for bass what Dirac does for imaging.

Would you be so kind to tell us a bit more about your experience. I've heard and read all great things about the software, MSO. I tried and it seems a lot of work and overly complicated.

Peace
 

Wes

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What do we know about accomodation ("listening thru") to dropouts or peaks in FR based on their width and center frequency?
 

win

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Would you be so kind to tell us a bit more about your experience. I've heard and read all great things about the software, MSO. I tried and it seems a lot of work and overly complicated.

Peace

I'd be happy to help. It's not complicated, but it is a lot of effort. There are just a lot of things that need to be accommodated in your project:

Part 1: Configuration
  • subwoofer channels
  • each subwoofer's available EQ adjustments
    • gain
    • delay
    • polarity inversion
    • parametric EQ (which includes low/high shelf)
      • count of available parametric EQ
      • adjustability of each parametric (for example, max Q)
    • all-pass filter
The permutations must be created within your project. You can duplicate channels and filters which helps if all of your EQ and subwoofers are identical. The project would look something like this:
  • channel 1
    • gain block
    • delay block
    • PEQ1
    • PEQ2
    • ...
  • channel 2
    • gain block
    • delay block
    • PEQ1
    • PEQ2
    • ...
  • ...
You can get by with as little as 1 or 2 PEQ filters per channel. I'd recommend 4. You can do more later, but increasing the count of filters will increase your computational complexity (and efficiency) exponentially. With lots of channels and lots of filters, sufficient optimization will take at least several hours. More listening positions also factors in (exponentially).

Part 2: Measurements

You have to determine which positions to take measurements at. You could spread these out around your listening area. You can weight which positions matter more, too. What's important is you have individual measurements for each channel in your setup and each individual measurement position. 5 seats and 4 subwoofer channels = 20 measurements. You'd want to be reasonably fluent with REW to do this. It's also important you have a consistent timing reference. Subwoofers will not produce a sweep that allows for time alignment. I used my left stereo channel to accomplish this, but I also had to quickly turn off said left stereo channel after the timing sweep or else it would interfere with my sub channel measurement. It was very tedious.

These measurements are imported into MSO. You should take care to be precise with your measurement file names, to correctly associate positions and channels.

Part 3: Calculation

This can take several hours of CPU time. MSO optimizes each channel's available adjustment filters. There are optimization parameter limits you can use, such as max delay, or minimum gain. The first few minutes are fun to watch, as MSO shows a real time approximation of what your system response will be, vs. the measurements. It gets closer and closer, and sometimes changes completely as the optimizer finds a novel optimization branch. In case it's not obvious, this program does not have a closed-form algebraic solution that it is calculating. It has an open-form, non-deterministic strategy (Nondeterministic algorithm - Wikipedia ).

Part 4: Integration

At this point MSO would tell you the best filters to use for every channel. It will even show you the combined response and what to expect (which measurements will later confirm to be remarkably prescient). There are many system topologies that could determine how you accomplish this - whether you are also using Dirac, whether you can adjust a house curve before or after the subwoofer channel's PEQ filters, whether you can high pass your stereo channels, whether you can low pass the 'mid' EQ section that would be just your subwoofer's EQ channels altogether, desired crossover between subs and mains, etc. There are too many possibilities to enumerate here.

Hope this helps. Happy to help with more if you have specific questions. The sum total of all this work is a bass frequency response that is simply unbelievable.
 

DonH56

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@andyc56 wrote MSO and is an ASR member. He is very helpful and responsive IME.
 

andyc56

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Would you be so kind to tell us a bit more about your experience. I've heard and read all great things about the software, MSO. I tried and it seems a lot of work and overly complicated.

There's a new version coming out on Aug. 1 that greatly simplifies project setup by making use of a "Measurement Import Wizard" and "Configuration Wizard". The tutorial has been rewritten from scratch and the reference manual has undergone a major rewrite, with the goal of making the whole process easier to understand. I am just finishing up the documentation.

Also, Jeff Mery has done a really good MSO tutorial video using a pre-release version of the software that's almost exactly the same as the version to be released. The video explains the new features and their usage very well (better than I could, actually).


@andyc56 wrote MSO and is an ASR member. He is very helpful and responsive IME.

Are you sure you've got the right guy? :) (j/k)
 
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FrantzM

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Hi @andyc56
Thanks for chiming in
I will give MSO my full attention now. Is it possible to download the "evaluation"? Today?

A few questions so that I start with the right knowledge.

Do i need to figure out the bass response of the mains in my MSO set-up? The idea is to use MSO and present the MSO-massaged subwoofers system as one subwoofer to Audyssey for integration with the rest of the speakers.
Presently I am making do with two Audyssey settings:
One for music with 2-channel and the subs
One for MCH mostly movies with 7 channels and the 2 subs.
It works for me but I am certain I am not getting a smooth response in the bass.
I did measure summarily and am not satisfied with the response in the bass... I have a lack of energy in the 60~80 Hz region (measured with REW)..
I will measure again and post these on this thread as soon I get back home in a week or two..
 

DonH56

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Are you sure you've got the right guy? :) (j/k)

Well, my experience is very limited... :) (Ditto!)

But you've proved my point! I am looking forward to the update; I was planning to use SFM but am shifting focus to MSO instead for various reasons. I'd like to see how it compares to the built-in Optimizer results. My plans got derailed by Life, Work, and a Windows update that somehow wiped out my HDMI drivers for REW so I haven't taken measurements in a while now.
 

andyc56

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Hi @andyc56
Thanks for chiming in
I will give MSO my full attention now. Is it possible to download the "evaluation"? Today?

You can download it here. This is not an installer though. You just copy it to a directory (not in "Program Files" or "Program Files (x86)") and run it from there. If the CHM help file shows up as blank when you press F1 or double-click on it, see the readme.html for how to fix that. MS blocks access to CHM files downloaded from the web by default for security reasons.

A few questions so that I start with the right knowledge.

Do i need to figure out the bass response of the mains in my MSO set-up? The idea is to use MSO and present the MSO-massaged subwoofers system as one subwoofer to Audyssey for integration with the rest of the speakers.

You can use MSO in two ways: "Sub-only configurations" only optimize the integration of the subs with one another without considering the main speakers. That's the method taught by Jeff in the video. "Subs+mains configurations" require measurement of the mains as well, and MSO optimizes both the integration of the subs with one another, and with the mains. Jeff's video doesn't deal with that.

Presently I am making do with two Audyssey settings:
One for music with 2-channel and the subs
One for MCH mostly movies with 7 channels and the 2 subs.
It works for me but I am certain I am not getting a smooth response in the bass.
I did measure summarily and am not satisfied with the response in the bass... I have a lack of energy in the 60~80 Hz region (measured with REW)..
I will measure again and post these on this thread as soon I get back home in a week or two..

If you use a sub-only configuration in MSO, then run Audyssey, you'll need to do the manual "sub distance tweak" to integrate the mains and subs afterward. This is because Audyssey uses a flawed time-domain approach to figure out the sub distance.

If you see a thread on this forum recommending lining up impulse responses between subs and main speakers to integrate them, please ignore it. That's the technique Audyssey uses, and why it gets sub-optimal results for the sub distance most of the time.
 

win

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If you see a thread on this forum recommending lining up impulse responses between subs and main speakers to integrate them, please ignore it

How do you recommend doing it?

I alluded to this same point w.r.t. the timing reference used when measuring subwoofer channels. That was doable, but when it came to integrating, I mostly just fiddled with the crossover between the MSO 'sub' and mains. I had to create a significant delay for my mains due to how the shd studio works. I can't remember how I calculated that, but would love to hear your recommendation for time aligning the mso-tuned subwoofer channel to L/R mains.
 

andyc56

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How do you recommend doing it?

I alluded to this same point w.r.t. the timing reference used when measuring subwoofer channels. That was doable, but when it came to integrating, I mostly just fiddled with the crossover between the MSO 'sub' and mains. I had to create a significant delay for my mains due to how the shd studio works. I can't remember how I calculated that, but would love to hear your recommendation for time aligning the mso-tuned subwoofer channel to L/R mains.

If you're using MSO and you want to integrate your mains and subs, the recommended way is to use a "subs + mains" configuration. I'm not familiar with the SHD Studio, but it looks like two inputs and four outputs, so stereo plus 2 subs? In that case you'd measure each main speaker and sub at all listening positions. So for N listening positions you'd have 4N measurements (left, right, sub1 and sub2 at each listening position). Subs must be set to mono mode.

It looks like these measurements could be performed with no crossover at all, so you could have a different configuration for each crossover frequency you want to try.
 

win

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If you're using MSO and you want to integrate your mains and subs, the recommended way is to use a "subs + mains" configuration. I'm not familiar with the SHD Studio, but it looks like two inputs and four outputs, so stereo plus 2 subs? In that case you'd measure each main speaker and sub at all listening positions. So for N listening positions you'd have 4N measurements (left, right, sub1 and sub2 at each listening position). Subs must be set to mono mode.

It looks like these measurements could be performed with no crossover at all, so you could have a different configuration for each crossover frequency you want to try.

My question was worded confusingly.

I meant in general - how would you recommend time aligning a subwoofer channel to a full frequency channel?
 

srrxr71

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Found MSO and I am convinced this is the way of the future.

My next project will be to use MSO to integrate (at first) 2 subs with my 8341 mains.

I wonder if it is possible to run MSO in the 0-100Hz band for subs and also run it again for the 100-300Hz band again to correct the mains for room modes.

Again it would be limited to the 2 mains but experimentally I wonder what could be done with 2 Rhythmik FM8 midbass units. I could position those as L and R but with different wall distance for example. Then a program like MSO could optimize the in room response at least to 250Hz due to limitation of the FM8.

Does this sound like a sensible thing to do?

If so I suppose DDRC88 is the only way to go keeping everything in hardware? I’d like the mains to stay digital but the subs and FM8s can use analog out through whatever converter - not particular about that.
 

Digital_Thor

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I have been running 4 subs for years now with my mains.... tuned it manually and have been pretty happy... most people coming by are too - even though I'm "only" pulling the 4 subs with a stereo amp - meaning only 2 channel dsp too :)
Now I have found an extra filter and extra amp, to change my current setup to a full-fledged multisub setup :D

But then... there's all this talk about FIR and anti-room-correction, where you simply measure in the sweet-spot and by DRC you create a wave-file and use APO to run it in windows, so that you suddenly have perfect impulse response, less reflections and cleaner sound. What I heard until now.... not fully impressed... still like my "old-school" manually measured and tuned active speakers better. Is this auto DRC just a wee to smart?
Toole is not impressed either in his presentation from 2015 - 37 min in:
There's talk about DRC being able to send out an anti-sound a bit delayed from the original sound, from the same speaker driver, to counteract in-room reflections and speaker reflections. Seems a bit to "magical" to me. Annyon who can elaborate on this type of modern computerized corrections?
 
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