Dynaudio Core 47 Review (Professional Monitor)

[Exprymer]

Impulse response and frequency response are the same thing. One is measured in time domain and the other in frequency. They are directly transformed to each other via Fourier Transform. A certain FR will always have the same IR, or visa versa.

Well, this is not exactly true. One can have a very flat FR and still have disaligment between drivers, which the Impulse response is the best way to analyze. HEDD for example has the Linearizer plugin which purpose is to delay one driver in relation to the other so the Impulse response is as close as possible to the Ideal one.

But there are compromises to be made. Usually the best time domain response costs directivity and FR Flatness, but for some designers it's worth it, because the transients are better represented since there's no smear. The B&W speakers are known for the poor FR but good Impulse response, which is the intention of the designer. That's why people still like the sound of it, despite the unbalanced FR.

To conclude, FR alone is not a sufficient method of analysis, because some people deliberatly choose to excel in the time aligment despite the poor FR. Dynaudio must have been aiming for better Impulse response, otherwise this speaker simply doesn't make sense.

EDIT: FR has in it's nature an average, which is why the Impulse response can be useful.

 

[hmt]

With DSP and FIR one can get a better impulse response without having any effect on the magnitude response. It just makes no sense to use shallow crossovers in an active speaker with DSP.

 

[Exprymer]

Can i ask Amir to share the equivalent priced Neumann or Genelec to compare both Stepped Responses? This comparison would either justify or crucify the design all together.

 

[dfuller]

Can i ask Amir to share the equivalent priced Neumann or Genelec to compare both Stepped Responses? This comparison would either justify or crucify the design all together.

The equivalent priced Neumann is the KH310 (actually a few hundred cheaper at $4600/pr). This review from Resolution has the step response, albeit at low res. https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/7672/download

 

[sarumbear]

Well, this is not exactly true. One can have a very flat FR and still have disaligment between drivers, which the Impulse response is the best way to analyze.

I do not know how well you grasp signal processing theory and the underlying math but the relationship between the impulse response and the frequency response is one of the foundations of signal processing: A system's frequency response is the Fourier Transform of its impulse response. Both the impulse response and the frequency response contain complete information about a system, there is one-to-one correspondence between the two. Given one, you can calculate the other.

 

[Exprymer]

I do not know how well you grasp signal processing theory and the underlying math but the relationship between the impulse response and the frequency response is one of the foundations of signal processing: A system's frequency response is the Fourier Transform of its impulse response. Both the impulse response and the frequency response contain complete information about a system, there is one-to-one correspondence between the two. Given one, you can calculate the other.

Yeah, i know some.
You are correct, from the Impulse response we can derive the Frequency domain response. But notice that the Fourier Transform is in it's essence an average. Which means the FR response we see is the average of the signal given a time window, because the FFT assumes that the input is a power signal, not a energy signal( from Lathi's book). You can play around, for example, by analysing a sample of a drum, selecting different parts of the sample. The FR will change with your selection.
Don't get me wrong, i consider the FR and directivity enough to evaluate a speaker design. But on this case in particular i'm interested on the time domain to find a cause for the poor behavior of this speaker given it's price tag.

 

[witwald]

Well, this is not exactly true. One can have a very flat FR and still have disaligment between drivers, which the Impulse response is the best way to analyze.

When referring to frequency response (FR), it is sometimes overlooked that it consists of both a magnitude response and a phase response. The two taken together contains the full details about the alignment characteristics of the drivers in a loudspeaker system.

To conclude, FR alone is not a sufficient method of analysis, because some people deliberately choose to excel in the time alignment despite the poor FR.

Unfortunately, for typical loudspeakers, excelling at time alignment at the expense of a poor magnitude response will result in a poor-sounding loudspeaker system. The fact that it sounds different to a loudspeaker system with a flat frequency response does not necessarily make it better.

EDIT: FR has in it's nature an average, which is why the Impulse response can be useful.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Noting that the FR consists of a magnitude and a phase response, then it is completely interchangeable with the impulse response. Having said that, looking at an impulse response and discerning driver alignments is probably somewhat easier than trying to do the same when looking at the magnitude and phase response, where the latter may need to be separated into its minimum-phase and excess-phase components.

 

[sarumbear]

Fourier Transform is in it's essence an average

I’m afraid I refrain to further comment on this subject, otherwise I may have to sue my alma-maters for miss-teaching signal processing math

 

[Exprymer]

When i say average, i mean on it's mathematical nature, since it's by definition a Integral, or a series. The upper and lower bounds of the sum or integral are the period of time.
Sorry to make the thread go another path.

Unfortunately, for typical loudspeakers, excelling at time alignment at the expense of a poor magnitude response will result in a poor-sounding loudspeaker system. The fact that it sounds different to a loudspeaker system with a flat frequency response does not necessarily make it better.

I agree with that. But some Loudspeaker designs choose this path. I've read several Stereophile Reviews and the author mentions these type of compromises. Of course with DSP almost anything is possible.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Noting that the FR consists of a magnitude and a phase response, then it is completely interchangeable with the impulse response.

Yes, you are definitely correct. We are given the FR and Phase response after the computing of the Fourier Transform and it's interchangeble.

Anyway, guys. It's not as important. Amir showed the Impulse response and it's not looking good either. I'm just sad about these results, i have lots of respect from dynaudio but this is just unaceptable.

 

[Erizo]

When I recieved the right side speaker I did am A and B and enjoyed what I was hearing. The Tannoy 8 has some great reviews. It has a wave guide as well. But the core 47 sounded so much better. Maybe because I am listening to it from a producer point of view compared to a scientific point of view. I feel I can pinpoint mistakes in a mix much easier with less ear fatigue. I also compared the monitor to Adam a77xa and Yamaha hs8. They just sounded more detailed than all of those and I could pickup mistakes in a mix much easier. Yea the tannoys have more directivity because of the tulip waveguide but they sound brighter and do not hit so low on the frequency range.

I am going to upload a video showing a comparison. I know it's not the best way to do things cause of the limitations of the microphone but you can hear a difference especially in the low end.

 

[amirm]

This is probably the impulse response, I would expect a different curve for the step response.

Yes, it is impulse response as it says on the graph. Fixed.

 

[dfuller]

When I recieved the right side speaker I did am A and B and enjoyed what I was hearing. The Tannoy 8 has some great reviews. It has a wave guide as well. But the core 47 sounded so much better. Maybe because I am listening to it from a producer point of view compared to a scientific point of view. I feel I can pinpoint mistakes in a mix much easier with less ear fatigue. I also compared the monitor to Adam a77xa and Yamaha hs8. They just sounded more detailed than all of those and I could pickup mistakes in a mix much easier. Yea the tannoys have more directivity because of the tulip waveguide but they sound brighter and do not hit so low on the frequency range.

I am going to upload a video showing a comparison. I know it's not the best way to do things cause of the limitations of the microphone but you can hear a difference especially in the low end.

Well, you aren't crazy - this is quite a bit better than the A77X (which I consider to be, frankly, an absolutely awful speaker in general) and the HS8 (which is also profoundly not amazing considering its competition, i.e. Focal and Kali, are just in general considerably better in most respects). It's probably better than that Tannoy too (which one, exactly?).

 

[Erizo]

Well, you aren't crazy - this is quite a bit better than the A77X (which I consider to be, frankly, an absolutely awful speaker in general) and the HS8 (which is also profoundly not amazing considering its competition, i.e. Focal and Kali, are just in general considerably better in most respects). It's probably better than that Tannoy too (which one, exactly?).

Tannoy gold 8. Also keep in mind the price point might be due to the high tax rate in Denmark which requires higher salaries vs let's say Chinese made monitors made with significantly lower wages or for example the Nuemann built in Ireland because germany would be more expensive.

 

[YSC]

Tannoy gold 8. Also keep in mind the price point might be due to the high tax rate in Denmark which requires higher salaries vs let's say Chinese made monitors made with significantly lower wages or for example the Nuemann built in Ireland because germany would be more expensive.

Can't argue on salary and rent side, these are the ingredients that one will treasure and willing to pay the premium with same quality. And your impression should be correct also as the A77X and HS8 both directivity and the distortion actually looked a bit worse than the Core 47, and Tannoys ASAIK generally measures pretty poorly also, so it concurs with your impression.

Nonetheless the Core 47 I would agree it's a good speaker (Just ok-ish factoring in the price), the kind of negative comments here is because of high hopes for Dynaudio high end lines, kind of like if Ferrari release their latest model which performs at Civic Type R level.. still a fast car, but not for the brand name and cost expectation

 

[hex168]

Nope, the D52 was a 2" dome, Dynaudio used to make though nice 3" mid domes though and a variant of their D76 was used in the O300/O410.
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=296&Itemid=60

At the time I preferred the 2" mid (the flat flange one, not the semi-horn-loaded) to the 3". Of course a given design could require one or the other.

 

[Erizo]

Can't argue on salary and rent side, these are the ingredients that one will treasure and willing to pay the premium with same quality. And your impression should be correct also as the A77X and HS8 both directivity and the distortion actually looked a bit worse than the Core 47, and Tannoys ASAIK generally measures pretty poorly also, so it concurs with your impression.

Nonetheless the Core 47 I would agree it's a good speaker (Just ok-ish factoring in the price), the kind of negative comments here is because of high hopes for Dynaudio high end lines, kind of like if Ferrari release their latest model which performs at Civic Type R level.. still a fast car, but not for the brand name and cost expectation

Well it could be that the price is justified by longevity and other factors that don't come up in testing. Maybe these speakers last 20 years with no issues.

 

[YSC]

Well it could be that the price is justified by longevity and other factors that don't come up in testing. Maybe these speakers last 20 years with no issues.

hum~ not sure about this but longevity wise Genelec and Neumann should not be any less but cost a bit less tough. Actually if it wasn't a DSP speaker I personally will rank it higher, but now it got the assist of DSP with induced latency and still perform like this is kind of disappointing

 

[Erizo]

hum~ not sure about this but longevity wise Genelec and Neumann should not be any less but cost a bit less tough. Actually if it wasn't a DSP speaker I personally will rank it higher, but now it got the assist of DSP with induced latency and still perform like this is kind of disappointing

It's like the KrK rokits had a decent rating but when I listen to them in person they lack detail and precision. They sound muddy. But the argument would be that they perform well for the price?

 

[o2so]

On the (off) topic of Dynaudio not measuring well or not caring about dispersion in general, here are two very much homemade charts taken at 1m that will give you an idea of horizontal and vertical dispersion of another model, also with DSP, that is the Focus XD 60. I took these last night at low level because everyone was asleep. This is also a small room so consider that.

 

[YSC]

It's like the KrK rokits had a decent rating but when I listen to them in person they lack detail and precision. They sound muddy. But the argument would be that they perform well for the price?

Hi Bro,

not trying to argue and say you did a bad purchase, just my speculation.

As you've mentioned your hearing have developed minor problems due to not using ear plugs during DJ and metallic tweeters will sound harsh to you, as such maybe the impression subjective will be different from majority of ppl.

And sometimes, I feel that the psychological impact is way more powerful than one thought it really is. like back in the days the norm is still use ipod with earbuds playing downloaded low bitrate mp3 files, I and other audiophiles kind of feel it's very good and true to life sound, once we got into a showroom with proper treatment and hifi speakers which plays the missing bass, I feel that the hifi is muddy also as you know, "the bass is wayyy overpowered and mask the vocals!" and then when I got used to the KEF X300A which have weired resonance at 1-2khz region and then a rolled off treble, I changed to genelec and at first week it sounds harsh treble due to the now much more neutral HF, but after a week when I adapted the harshness goes away and I can enjoy it a lot and it now sounds more right to me, maybe same will happen for my next toy or whatever.

So I believe either you listened in showrooms where the environment affected the sound a lot more, or when you have a trial pair for short term listening, the KRK Rokits difference to whatever signature you adapted to will be apparent. My view is that for HiFi/entertainment use, enjoy whatever you like, a lot of ppl enjoyed Bose and nothing wrong with that, I get my time when I was still a teenager in school with altec lansing entry level 2.1 computer speakers costing $50, hey it's much better than the Dell included $10 speakers, at least have a bit of bass no? but if it's for studio, I would calibrate mine to be as close to flat as possible, as that is what it really sounds like so I can mix to make it real good sounding in hifi systems, yet another pair of whatever broken speakers to make sure the balance would be ok even on crap phone built in speakers