Audiofools turned objectivists or vice-versa?

[gn77b]

So, has anyone switched sides and stayed there? I'm personally an objectivist but at the same time I want to believe. 2 things are kinda unexplained to me: amps with big transformers in the power supplies tend to sound better (more bass and better soundstage when pushed hard) but measurements don't clearly show why (frequency response is flat in most cases and I think the steep rise in THD near max power only partially explains it). And I did hear obvious (absolutely beyond debate) differences in DACs but only in one occasion. All other tests showed none. I do agree that it might've need because in wasn't level matched test but it's too long ago to think too much about it.

I'm not here to be given a lecture I know myself too well, I'm just curious.

 

[Frgirard]

When a guy start his thread by i'm an objectivist and.... He is a repressed subjectivist.

We are 99% to oscillate between the two poles. It's okay, it's what makes us humans and not algorithms

 

[solderdude]

Was audiophool and then started testing (the correct way).

It's fine to believe... it can bring great pleasure.
It's better to know... it can bring piece of mind.

 

[faheem]

So, has anyone switched sides and stayed there? I'm personally an objectivist but at the same time I want to believe. 2 things are kinda unexplained to me: amps with big transformers in the power supplies tend to sound better (more bass and better soundstage when pushed hard) but measurements don't clearly show why (frequency response is flat in most cases and I think the steep rise in THD near max power only partially explains it). And I did hear obvious (absolutely beyond debate) differences in DACs but only in one occasion. All other tests showed none. I do agree that it might've need because in wasn't level matched test but it's too long ago to think too much about it.

I'm not here to be given a lecture I know myself too well, I'm just curious.

About the DAC, Recently I heard a song, I'm familiar with on a dac and the soundstage was much bigger than memory of a BTR5 which I'd used earlier. I then volume matched the btr5 to the output voltage with a wire wound resistor close enough to my headphone impedance and an oscilloscope, heard no difference when ab.

Being able to volume match has been massively helpful. I have done it with BTR3K, Apple Dongle, O2, Diablo, BTR5, ifi Xcan these past few months, whenever I thought something sounded more impressive than memory. Have never heard any difference.

 

[DSJR]

It took decades in and around the industry for me to fully realise, but I now feel that ALL our senses are involved in subjectivist audio and our ears are arguably the least of it! Sighted tactile dems - being able to see and touch the gear - allows all manner of differences to come through, but just listening with ears and everything else as disconnected as possible, all the preconceptions and bull***t disappears. Trouble is, this industry is now riddled with it, especially on the domestic side and anyone with no knowledge and little experience now has a loud voice in forums and Youtube etc.. (If it takes one to know one I hold my hand up high).

 

[solderdude]

85% of earth's population is religious in some form (acc. to wikipedia)
A conclusion could be: people want/need to believe.

 

[tr1ple6]

I don't think calling them Audiofools is very helpful. If the point is to get more of them to see the light and join our side then it is super counter productive.

Probably more subjectivists switch to being objectivists than the other way around. The problem arises when people have ill informed reasons for switching which leads to them going back and forth. A lot of smart people have spent decades researching what matters in audio reproduction so it is worth trusting the consensus even if our personal experience can fool us into believing otherwise

 

[solderdude]

I considered myself an audiophool because I clearly had been fooling myself for many years.

Indeed it's more about the vast majority being misinformed which is also worsened by incorrect ways of evaluating audio equipment.
Humans tend to believe whatever they observe or have been told (repeatedly).

 

[Katji]

85% of earth's population is religious in some form (acc. to wikipedia)
A conclusion could be: people want/need to believe.

That problem is addressed by education. So, for instance, people can understand that the reason for lightning striking one house instead of another is not witchcraft.
Religion/etc. arises naturally from the basic existential questions/problems. Education, specially with basic science, forces religions to change, to concede.

 

[Gorgonzola]

So, has anyone switched sides and stayed there? I'm personally an objectivist but at the same time I want to believe. 2 things are kinda unexplained to me: amps with big transformers in the power supplies tend to sound better (more bass and better soundstage when pushed hard) but measurements don't clearly show why (frequency response is flat in most cases and I think the steep rise in THD near max power only partially explains it). And I did hear obvious (absolutely beyond debate) differences in DACs but only in one occasion. All other tests showed none. I do agree that it might've need because in wasn't level matched test but it's too long ago to think too much about it.

I'm not here to be given a lecture I know myself too well, I'm just curious.

You'll get short shrift around ASR if you want to talk about sound differences between amplifiers. The prevalent opinion around here is that perceived sound differences between amps operating within their parameters are in listeners head, the result of confirmation bias or the like. This is considered settled science and above contradiction by any existing studies.

Your wish to not be lectured will be disrespected if you choose to persist in your errand impressions.

 

[JP]

85% of earth's population is religious in some form (acc. to wikipedia)
A conclusion could be: people want/need to believe.

I wonder what the correlation is between audio “objectivist” and atheist or agnostic.

 

[BluesDaddy]

... I did hear obvious (absolutely beyond debate) differences in DACs but only in one occasion.

So you have certified, witnessed, and verifiable results of a DBT for this? That's about the only thing that would make it "beyond debate".

 

[rkeman]

So, has anyone switched sides and stayed there? I'm personally an objectivist but at the same time I want to believe. 2 things are kinda unexplained to me: amps with big transformers in the power supplies tend to sound better (more bass and better soundstage when pushed hard) but measurements don't clearly show why (frequency response is flat in most cases and I think the steep rise in THD near max power only partially explains it). And I did hear obvious (absolutely beyond debate) differences in DACs but only in one occasion. All other tests showed none. I do agree that it might've need because in wasn't level matched test but it's too long ago to think too much about it.

I'm not here to be given a lecture I know myself too well, I'm just curious.

My objectivist side serves to provide my subjectivist side with the best possible listening experience!

 

[bboris77]

I was not a full-blown audiophool when I started, but I did explore tube amplifiers and a bunch of tubes which can change the frequency response of any given transducer. Looking back at it now, it is very likely that the effect these various tubes had on my headphones were in the inaudible/barely audible range. The only one that was clearly audible was my original Vali which had a horrendous hiss. In fact, most of the difference between various amps was not in their distortion performance, but various types of noise - 60hz power noise, hiss, picking up RFI and so on.

I am now very happy with my $99 fully transparent DAC and amplifier running my HD800S.

I have to give credit where it's due - Jason Stoddard. Even though Schiit straddles the line between subjectivism and objectivism, he has always advised anyone getting into this hobby to spend the most money on their headphones and speakers even though his company makes neither.

EDIT: Credit also goes to this forum for at least initially focusing on the deceptive practices of high-end manufactures that promise mind-blowing things at astronomic prices, with literally no technical data to back up those claims.

 

[Frgirard]

For the rest of the world, an audiophile is an audiofool

 

[Katji]

2 things are kinda unexplained to me: amps with big transformers in the power supplies tend to sound better (more bass and better soundstage when pushed hard) but measurements don't clearly show why (frequency response is flat in most cases and I think the steep rise in THD near max power only partially explains it).

There are several threads here that do explain it...maybe a search for [speakers impedance] would find them, but I'd rather narow it down , make the search more specific.

[PS:] Measurements on amplifiers with speakers and cables connected
... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...&q=impedance&t=post&c[thread]=291&o=relevance

 

[pkane]

I wonder what the correlation is between audio “objectivist” and atheist or agnostic.

I think of audiophilia as more of an addiction than a religion. A user is always looking for that next dopamine hit and denies everything that could possibly stand in the way, like logic or common sense.

Most objectivists (not all) are recovering addicts, I'd venture to say. Instead of trying to prove things with DBTs and measurements, we should set up a support group and hold regular meetings

 

[THW]

all this talk about “religion” and “objectivity”… am I the only one who thinks it is ok to both be religious and think scientifically at the same time and that the two are not necessarily conflicting?

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am not good at searching on this forum, else I would have pointed you toward my journey.

My turn was slow (started around 2008) but it happened (2012~2014?) and am happy about it. I have a system now that sounds better than my previous audiophile-High-End-Audio systems. It also likely measure better, not that I did care to measure then but ...
My entire current system cost less than what I was willing to pay for my speaker cables during my audiophool (the term is appropriate IMO) time. For perspective, my mains ( 3 x JBL LSR 308) + Subwoofers ( 2 x Dayton Audio SB-1500) cost less than my speakers stand of those days....

Peace

 

[THW]

also FWIW, i converted pretty early on over to more evidence-based thinking. that being said, i distinctly remember wanting to buy the Modi Multibit and having pretty grand dreams about buying multi kilobuck headphones and also thinking that Schiit can do no wrong. never got into the cable nonsense though.

thanks to ASR, the money that was about to go towards the Modi Multibit went to the DX3 Pro V1 3 years ago instead. and today it is still going strong happily powering my 600s.