Neumann KH420 vs Genelec 8361A

[Sprint]

One thing to be aware of is that GLM currently only properly handles a single sub.

I use the same process as you right now(GLM + Dirac) to integrate Genelec mains with non Genelec subs.

and how is the integration between Genelec mains and non Genelec subs? Are you happy? BTW I miss your JTR profile pic ;-).

 

[richard12511]

and how is the integration between Genelec mains and non Genelec subs? Are you happy? BTW I miss your JTR profile pic ;-).

Fantastic now! Better than it's ever been. Up until a few months ago I had a couple dips in the bass response(just below the crossover) that Dirac refused to touch. I tried pulling them up manually in Roon, but that sounded weird to my ears. I recently learned of REW's new phase alignment tool. I used that tool aimed at my crossover frequency, and it spit out a delay for me to add to the subs in the miniDSP. That delay somehow got rid of the dips almost altogether, no EQ needed .

*Edit: I've been experimenting with new avatars. I tried to go to a new JTR speaker, but the speaker is too physically tall to fit well.

 

[Sprint]

Fantastic now! Better than it's ever been. Up until a few months ago I had a couple dips in the bass response(just below the crossover) that Dirac refused to touch. I tried pulling them up manually in Roon, but that sounded weird to my ears. I recently learned of REW's new phase alignment tool. I used that tool aimed at my crossover frequency, and it spit out a delay for me to add to the subs in the miniDSP. That delay somehow got rid of the dips almost altogether, no EQ needed .

*Edit: I've been experimenting with new avatars. I tried to go to a new JTR speaker, but the speaker is too physically tall to fit well.

Cool!!! The graph looks very good. I need to double check if my Dirac adjusted the dips below the crossover. I also increased the bass in all my genelec speakers by creating a high shelf filter at 100 HZ with -2.0 DB. I learnt this from a very good you tube video on using GLM. After this setting, my set up sounded excellent with a bit more bass for hifi listening :-D.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

At such a small room imho such a high investment is not really worth it as you won't have great sound quality needing to place the loudspeakers at only 50cm from the front wall and side walls and yourself then also less than a meter from the rear wall for a decent 2 meter stereo triangle.
If I were you I would rather spend money on room acoustics unless you plan to change later to a bigger room.

Also in such a small room and listening distance something like a KH310 or Genelec 8351 would get more then enough loud, although you would still to have fight with bass modes and nulls, where possibly some nearfield monitors and 2x subs would give you better results.

A bit late to this discussion i guess....

"won't have great sound quality needing to place the loudspeakers at only 50cm from the front wall" Neumann recommends placing the KH420s at a maximum of 80cm from the front wall measured from the front baffel. Since they are 65cm ish deep, they should practically be placed "on" the front wall.

So I guess that is not an issue. But in summary I agree in all the above. For such a small - and square - room you will need a lot of room treatment and Eq to get the sound right. I would recommend going WAY down in size on the monitors. Unless you need insane loudness. Remember placing them close to the back wall gives SPL increase and if you end up placing them in the room corners as well, - even more gain.

 

[thewas]

A bit late to this discussion i guess....

"won't have great sound quality needing to place the loudspeakers at only 50cm from the front wall" Neumann recommends placing the KH420s at a maximum of 80cm from the front wall measured from the front baffel. Since they are 65cm ish deep, they should practically be placed "on" the front wall.

So I guess that is not an issue. But in summary I agree in all the above. For such a small - and square - room you will need a lot of room treatment and Eq to get the sound right. I would recommend going WAY down in size on the monitors. Unless you need insane loudness. Remember placing them close to the back wall gives SPL increase and if you end up placing them in the room corners as well, - even more gain.

The problem is not really the front wall and the close to its placement but that the loudspeakers will be also close to the side walls and the listener to the rear wall (due to the small dimensions) which make the imaging suffer and contrary to the tonality cannot be corrected via EQ.

 

[Frgirard]

A bit late to this discussion i guess....

"won't have great sound quality needing to place the loudspeakers at only 50cm from the front wall" Neumann recommends placing the KH420s at a maximum of 80cm from the front wall measured from the front baffel. Since they are 65cm ish deep, they should practically be placed "on" the front wall.

So I guess that is not an issue. But in summary I agree in all the above. For such a small - and square - room you will need a lot of room treatment and Eq to get the sound right. I would recommend going WAY down in size on the monitors. Unless you need insane loudness. Remember placing them close to the back wall gives SPL increase and if you end up placing them in the room corners as well, - even more gain.

Against the front wall is the right place for all speakers.

 

[A-Tech]

Yes, it's unfortunate that their subs are so expensive, even Neumann subs have more value for money.

Is there in the mean time a technical reason for the high price of the W371A or is Genelec just targeting the high end (atmos)studio markets for more revenue on the introduction of their "adaptive sub technology" . I wonder if this technology really influences existing room modes which is mathematical property of a given dimension.

 

[Ilkless]

Is there in the mean time a technical reason for the high price of the W371A or is Genelec just targeting the high end (atmos)studio markets for more revenue on the introduction of their "adaptive sub technology" . I wonder if this technology really influences existing room modes which is mathematical property of a given dimension.

It doesn't affect the modes. It affects how much the modes are excited relative to each other via beamforming (i.e. allowing non-omni radiation).

 

[A-Tech]

I have to start a research on these units to find out how it's exactly done. If I'm not mistaken given the high the crossover @ 200 Mhz. A big part of the (mid)bass is coming from the sealed transducer of the W371A . I wonder how the software is controlling the ported one and what it's doing in regard to the beamforming. Thank for replying. First conversation here.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I would take this beast over the w371 any day

 

[A-Tech]

I would take this beast over the w371 any day
View attachment 197463View attachment 197463

. Why? I was thinking on clean extension at the lowest SPL possible.

 

[Killingbeans]

I would take this beast over the w371

Why not both? The W371 is not really a subwoofer. Its main purpose is to transform the 83X1A/B into a 5-way speaker. It also lets you use it in a cardioid mode, similar to what you get from D&D or Kii.

 

[A-Tech]

I'm currenty investigating the double DD's too. The 7382A is too much of Starship project. Above that I'm looking for a domestic solution. The 8c are nice indeed. I was hoping on a new W371 alternative, as there is no way to justify the price. I just started investigating the 83X series. It came to my attention because of the full range and nearfield properties. I just want a bit more lower frequencies at very close range.

​

 

[A-Tech]

I'm currenty investigating the double DD's too. The 7382A is too much of Starship project. Above that I'm looking for a domestic solution. The 8c are nice indeed. I was hoping on a new W371 alternative, as there is no way to justify the price. I just started investigating the 83X series. It came to my attention because of the full range and nearfield properties. I just want a bit more lower frequencies at very close range.

​

It would be also nice to create reference properties like disconnecting the extension all together. It seems like the SAM software is capable of doing this.

 

[A-Tech]

Fair points - for the same reasons I skipped D&D and Kii.

I do find it kind of scary that the DD are running a distribution of Linux and a full motherboard with a fan in each of the speaker cabinets if I'm not mistaken. It truly is a computer with a cloud back-end. Imagine if DD disappears as a young upcoming speaker manufacture. A real horror after an initial investment of 13.500 Euro's.

 

[Scoox]

The 8Cs go down to 30 Hz ±1 dB so you'll still need a subwoofer if you want access to the very low end. The following are Thomann prices: 2 x 8351B + 1 x 7370A = 10,719 € (though you can get them cheaper if you shop around and haggle, especially smaller dealers). The DD 8C Studio (pair) costs €9.710 on the Dutch&Dutch store. I suspect if you add a third-party sub to the 8Cs (AFAIK they don't do a subwoofer yet) the combined cost is similar to that of said Genelec system, so it's hard to claim one is better than the other. One way in which Genelec has the upper hand is subwoofer integration, which is a piece of cake if you use GLM (BTW they usually throw this in for free if you buy a pair of 8351Bs). If DD offered a subwoofer, the combined cost would probably be a lot higher than the cost of the equivalent Gennie system.

I know many people around here would like sound to come from a single point source and I used to be sceptical of subwoofers myself for similar reasons until I actually tried a 2.1 Genelec system two weeks ago and now I'm sold. The subwoofer takes work off the monitors and makes the system much easier to integrate into a room as you can put the subwoofer(s) where it sounds best and the monitors where they sound best, which are often two different locations.

I had been using a Subpac till recent and, while it's a perfectly valid tool for mixing and getting right the low end, the perception of bass is different than that of a subwoofer. It's not bad or unpleasant, just different, and you can tell very clearly if you toggle between the two. In other words, either a subwoofer or a Subpac can lead to a good mix, but you are tackling the problem from two different angles. I think the more tools I have to monitor bass the better, hence my desire to incorporate a subwoofer into my system, which in no way replaces the Subpac, and vice versa.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

. Why? I was thinking on clean extension at the lowest SPL possible.

I find the Genelecs subs insanely overpriced. For 15.000 dollars (the cost in Norway) you can buy 4 beasts of subwoofers, place them probably better then you can with one 7382 and use minidsp to get them right and still save 5k. Cant believe the GLM makes 5k worth improvement vs another third Party room correction system…

 

[Frgirard]

I find the Genelecs subs insanely overpriced. For 15.000 dollars (the cost in Norway) you can buy 4 beasts of subwoofers, place them probably better then you can with one 7382 and use minidsp to get them right and still save 5k. Cant believe the GLM makes 5k worth improvement vs another third Party room correction system…

xtz make good subwoofer

 

[Scoox]

I find the Genelecs subs insanely overpriced. For 15.000 dollars (the cost in Norway) you can buy 4 beasts of subwoofers, place them probably better then you can with one 7382 and use minidsp to get them right and still save 5k. Cant believe the GLM makes 5k worth improvement vs another third Party room correction system…

They are the Apple of monitors, sure they are overpriced. And to be honest the build quality isn't as good as people think... got mine with some manufacturing problems that I reported directly to Genelec and they basically asked me to accept them. The monitors sound good but Genelec products are luxury items and I was expecting perfect. I'm still not happy about the manufacturing issues and I intend, at some point, to share them here.

 

[MikeFromNorway]

I have no problem accepting the price of the monitors. I would even go as far to say that for What you get they’re descently priced as are the Neumanns. Adams, Dynaudio etc… Pwc/Atc though questionable.

But if you look at the subs of all the above mentioned Brands i just dont get the pricing.

Are the Arendals, Xtz, SVs (three of the mostly sold Brands in scandinsvia) so much worse? If it wouldnt be for the waf, i would certainly build my own…