How holographic can a soundstage be?

[Berlin]

I like my stereo set-up. To my ears music sounds great and instruments/vocal are nicely separated two-dimensionally . In order to test the three-dimensional presentation of my set-up, I played a Chesky Audiophile Test Recording. According to this recording my set-up is capable of generating the illusion of a three dimensional stage. However, when I am listening to music I have so far never experienced a three dimensional/holographic separation of vocals and instruments. Am I expecting too much when it comes to soundstage depth? What would be a good track to test that?

BTW, because of so many excellent reviews of the Denafrips Ares II, I ordered one from Singapur. According to the reviews, the Ares II is supposed to be capable of presenting music similar to a tube amplifier with lots of spacial/ambient information. Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the reviewers’ impressions. To my ears the sound of the Ares II is indistinguishable from my Hegel H120…



Ralf

 

[Jas0_0]

The only time I achieved a - subjectively - 3D ‘image’ was when I’d corrected for both frequency and timing issues using the Dirac trial. To me the effect was uncanny. I could move around the room and the ‘image’ stayed put. The most enjoyable sonic experience ever.

I’m now experimenting to achieve the same with Focus Fidelity. Sure Audiolense and Acourate would do it too.

 

[Deleted member 28849]

The track I use is 'Give Me a Sign' from the album Metamorphosis by Jean Michel Jarre, I seen the album on Amazon HD if it is still there, can't check on this computer.

Anyway what you should hear is a ghostly type vocals floating in like a holographic image kind of layered above the main female vocals. Its of a higher frequency nature, depending on your setup it can be weak or well defined. But if you aren't listening for it you may not notice. In my experience even with a half decent stereo you should be able to notice it but as my system has gotten better over the years the image becomes even more defined. It's a really cool effect that Jean Michel Jarre uses on this song. However you will hear this method on some of the other tracks on this album once you are aware of it.

 

[Eetu]

Try this one:

A couple of things that IME help create the effect: Make sure side wall reflections are symmetrical (same distance & material).

Listening setup is an equilateral triangle (the distance between speakers is exactly the same as the distance from each speaker to listening position).

And as @Jas0_0 mentioned, DSP makes a difference. EQ speakers individually, correct phase (from 100Hz->). You can try Dirac, Audiolense, Acourate, Focus Fidelity or do it manually with REW + rePhase.

 

[Jimbob54]

I like my stereo set-up. To my ears music sounds great and instruments/vocal are nicely separated two-dimensionally . In order to test the three-dimensional presentation of my set-up, I played a Chesky Audiophile Test Recording. According to this recording my set-up is capable of generating the illusion of a three dimensional stage. However, when I am listening to music I have so far never experienced a three dimensional/holographic separation of vocals and instruments. Am I expecting too much when it comes to soundstage depth? What would be a good track to test that?

BTW, because of so many excellent reviews of the Denafrips Ares II, I ordered one from Singapur. According to the reviews, the Ares II is supposed to be capable of presenting music similar to a tube amplifier with lots of spacial/ambient information. Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the reviewers’ impressions. To my ears the sound of the Ares II is indistinguishable from my Hegel H120…



Ralf

Ah yes, the fabled benefits of upgrading to *insert name of current flavour of the month product*. Invariably its either better transients, more bass control and/ or soundstage opening up. None of which should be expected from changing from one decent DAC to another.

 

[Berlin]

Anyway what you should hear is a ghostly type vocals floating in like a holographic image kind of layered above the main female vocals.

I think I know what you mean...

 

[MarsianC#]

I like my stereo set-up.

Try Ambisonics, it is great
Unfortunately not very practical. I agree on carefully managing reflections. Use ETC in REW with SketchUp and Amray and decide what to do next.

 

[Deleted member 28849]

Another Song that has the holographic effect on the vocals is 'El Diablo by Grace Slick. She sorta layers the vocals and I usually play this song loud just for the room effect.

 

[Berlin]

And as @Jas0_0 mentioned, DSP makes a difference. EQ speakers individually, correct phase (from 100Hz->). You can try Dirac, Audiolense, Acourate, Focus Fidelity or do it manually with REW + rePhase.

Yes, thanks, room EQ is on my to-do list...

 

[Berlin]

Try this one:

It's pretty cool...

 

[Berlin]

Ah yes, the fabled benefits of upgrading to *insert name of current flavour of the month product*. Invariably its either better transients, more bass control and/ or soundstage opening up. None of which should be expected from changing from one decent DAC to another.

The impact of DACs and amplifiers is low. My Hegel H120 does not sound better/different than my 20 year old Musical Fidelity x-150 which was 20% of the price of the Hegel. YouTube reviewers pay a lot of attention to clean power. For that reason I tried a Sbooster BOTW. It did not make a difference at all (as Amir already proofed on similar devices)... I will give a try to room EQ in the near future...

 

[Jim Matthews]

I would submit it's more about the original recording or gentle multitracking in the final mix.

Elvis Costello, Live at Hollywood high "Allison" has enough decay captured in the performance that crowd shouts sound prominent and close.

Most of the small ensemble recordings from Opus 3 records of Lars Estrand were single mic, and cues to player depth "on stage" were recorded.

Getting that sort of illusion right with pieces that are faster than the reverb time of a room, or with multiple performers is nearly impossible.

My favorite RCA "living stereo" recordings image poorly.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Try BACCH

 

[Jimbob54]

The impact of DACs and amplifiers is low. My Hegel H120 does not sound better/different than my 20 year old Musical Fidelity x-150 which was 20% of the price of the Hegel. YouTube reviewers pay a lot of attention to clean power. For that reason I tried a Sbooster BOTW. It did not make a difference at all (as Amir already proofed on similar devices)... I will give a try to room EQ in the near future...

Yup- speakers, room and EQ are where its at. Everything else (assuming the amp is powerful enough of course) is at best tweaking the edges or more likely delivering nothing audible.

 

[Jimbob54]

The track I use is 'Give Me a Sign' from the album Metamorphosis by Jean Michel Jarre, I seen the album on Amazon HD if it is still there, can't check on this computer.

Anyway what you should hear is a ghostly type vocals floating in like a holographic image kind of layered above the main female vocals. Its of a higher frequency nature, depending on your setup it can be weak or well defined. But if you aren't listening for it you may not notice. In my experience even with a half decent stereo you should be able to notice it but as my system has gotten better over the years the image becomes even more defined. It's a really cool effect that Jean Michel Jarre uses on this song. However you will hear this method on some of the other tracks on this album once you are aware of it.

To me , that track has a very narrow soundstage. The effects on the vocals (that I hear at least) are more an example of imaging. They move around a bit but everything is still pretty central in the mix- nothing hard left or right.

 

[Mart68]

Best holographic soundstage I have heard was 'Jeff Beck Live At Ronnie Scott's' through Linkwitz LX521

it was initially disconcerting as my ears were telling me I was standing somewhere near the back of said club whereas my eyes were telling me I was seeing a blank wall and two odd-looking loudspeakers.

Afterwards I bought the album, even though I am not much of a Jeff Beck fan, just to see how my system would compare. Short answer - it didn't.

 

[Jim Matthews]

it was initially disconcerting as my ears were telling me I was standing somewhere near the back of said club whereas my eyes were telling me I was seeing a blank wall and two odd-looking loudspeakers.

Disorienting, innit?
(In the best way possible.)

 

[Berlin]

The Chesky album "Hobo" by Sara K. was recorded with a single stereo microphone in a church (if I am not mistaken). I like the track "Brick House": double base in the front, percussions in the back, vocals in the middle? However, I wished the stage would be even more 3D...

The Talk Talk albums "Happiness is Easy" and "Laughing Stock" give me the illusion of depth.

The rather old Louis Armstrong recording "St. James Infirmary" (Satchmo plays King Oliver) has some depth...

"Calcutta Blues" Dave Brubeck (Jazz Impressions of Eurasia) seems that it was recorded in a big empty room. I think that here each instrument can be located three dimensionally...

 

[Berlin]

"Calcutta Blues" Dave Brubeck (Jazz Impressions of Eurasia) seems that it was recorded in a big empty room. I think that here each instrument can be located three dimensionally...

BTW, a great drum solo starts at approx. 5:35 min...

 

[Rip City Dave]

My Magnepans can be pretty darn good at soundstaging and imaging. I like playing Approaching Pavonis Mons by Balloon by The Flaming Lips.

Also, using the Carver C9 in the signal chain cancels out inter-aural crosstalk and enhances this effect even more.