Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[boXem]

Well, after reading this Trinnov test, let me express a few thoughts and concerns.

Sure Trinnov is expensive. And Ok the measured performances are not absolutely on par with a budget Topping or other good budget dacs makers, but that's not the whole story. Far from that !

I use a Topping DX7S for years - excellent device for its DAC and headamp sections, but not as good when I listen thru its line output. Not bad for price, but I listened to better preamps, no matter what the Topping's excellent theorical measurements tell on the test bench.
But for ergonomy and overall quality, this overall good budget DAC/preamp has obvious little flaws : for example, an audible "pop" at extinction.... Not a good point, because any 2 or 300 $ receiver on the market are equipped with relays that prevent those "pops". This is more important IMO than slight differences in measurements.

To come back to the Trinnov test, I' not sure that one could hear any difference at all in direct comparison betwween the Dac alone section of the Trinnov and any of Topping or Gustard or Matrix or others "competition" laboratory measurements budget Dacs.

As for ergonomy, modularity, connectivity, room calibration (one of the best if not the best), overall quality, company support, I would choose Trinnov without any hesitation against any budget brands (if I had the budget -unfortunelately not....). Once again, these are MUCH more important criterias than absolute figures in measurements.

I don't write this because I'm french and proud of a few companies like Trinnov, but because beyond a certain level of quality on the test bench, absolute measured performance are not key points. that's the limits of the tests.

Fully agree. Not because I am french .
I have discussed with a few pros building private cinema rooms (yes, it's a pretty good business here in Luxembourg, especially since pandemics). They were clear on one point: Trinnov is the one and only room correction system that is actually working.

 

[essence]

Does it do anything special to justify the exuberant price?

You gain access to object-based audio, aka sparkles. Trinnov (and maybe Storm?) are the only two options when you're after post-processed digital outputs.

Wished there was a software solution but I guess its far easier to gatekeep the technology when its locked to hardware.

 

[mar1o]

You shouldn't.

The dsp signal path is 24/48 or lower.
Dolby decoding is a black box in these av's and upmixing algorithms are also small black boxes, and crossover slopes are working only in certain ways, volume control is another story, etc.

And of course your speaker setup in your room, is incapable of red book resolution or dynamic range, so why bother.

Maybe with high quality and dynamic range headphones there is a small need for a high quality 2 channel Dac for certain music species and for listening levels above reference (85-105)..
But, above reference level, our ears have lower capabilities, so you should have lower expectations of high quality at these spl's.

Thanks. I thought the impact of the DAC would be bit higher in the chain of a multi channel or stereo speaker setup.

 

[voodooless]

Seeing the price and the performance figures, I really cannot understand why it would end up on the recommended list. It's obviously not broken, but for that price, I'd expect to get 110+ SINAD, but possibly the updates would get us there.

But looking at the feature set as described by @zorax2 however, that changes the whole story quite a bit. Personally, I would not spend the money either way, but it would definitely sway me towards the recommendation.

 

[EB1000]

Love to see inside pictures. Is that a 50$ Intel mini ATX MB inside? What happens after the MB dies?

 

[Sancus]

Seeing the price and the performance figures, I really cannot understand why it would end up on the recommended list. It's obviously not broken, but for that price, I'd expect to get 110+ SINAD, but possibly the updates would get us there.

I really am starting to feel like the focus on SINAD has caused some to lose the plot. Fact of the matter is that 100dB SINAD is the "doesnt really matter anymore" point. In most domestic environments on speakers, it probably comes far sooner than 100dB purely due to noise floor.

Surround processors are all about the features, and Trinnov has the best-of-the-best room correction. Nobody else I'm aware of has anything like their Optimizer/visualization setup. Let alone the 2D/3D remapping stuff that lets you change the apparent location of speakers. I don't think I could ever spend quite that much on a processor, but I understand why people buy these.

And I also really think we've reached the point where features are more important than performance in most DACs. If you gave me a choice between a $500 DAC with 120dB SINAD, and one with 100dB SINAD+a good headphone amp+Dirac, I would consider the first unbuyable and the second an unprecedented bargain.

 

[voodooless]

I really am starting to feel like the focus on SINAD has caused some to lose the plot. Fact of the matter is that 100dB SINAD is the "doesnt really matter anymore" point. In most domestic environments on speakers, it probably comes far sooner than 100dB purely due to noise floor.

While I agree absolutely that sonically it doesn't make a difference, we're still talking about a 17k state-of-art AV receiver (for that kind of money I can buy a car with a 7.1 stereo system). Then I can also expect state of art-audio-performance, can't I? Especially since it's a processor and not a receiver.

Surround processors are all about the features

Sure, bring it in the review then.. now I had to scroll through the comments to find out.

 

[boXem]

While I agree absolutely that sonically it doesn't make a difference, we're still talking about a 17k state of art AV receiver. Then I can also expect state of art audio performance, can't I?



Sure, bring it in the review then.. now I had to scroll through the comments to find out.

Audio performance is what humans can hear right?
So here is the best audio performance on the market, since it's room correction algorithm is the best on the market.

 

[TimoJ]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Trinnov Altitude 16 AV Processor. I received one sample from a kind member after which Trinnov also contacted me and sent me another with an improvement (see below). The Altitude costs US $17,000.

So Trinnov sent you a cherry-picked golden sample because all sold units would have measured much worse...? It would have been interesting to see how the ASR members unit measured.

 

[3125b]

Still better value than a $8k BS Audio DAC

 

[boXem]

These cherry picking stories continuously coming back are showing a complete ignorance of how electronics work. No better than cable lifters and audiophile switches.

 

[Costas EAR]

Trinnov is using a quite old Dac output board, although they are very capable (years ago) of producing another board with >100 sinad, but they don't see any advantage in this.

But OK, they are now quite ready to offer an upgrade to all customers, if needed.

As a matter of fact, they don't suggest upgrading this board (when available to order) because they know there is nothing to hear, same story as fancy audio cables.

Talking about cables, in my 9.4.4 setup, the total length of interconnects for my active speakers is much more than 200 meters!
No fancy cables either. Just good old plain Mogami's, with good old plain neutrik XLR 's.

Trinnov audio is one of the very few that is constantly hiring more engineers (high salaries) for research and development of the things that really matter...

 

[voodooless]

Audio performance is what humans can hear right?

No, I'm talking about objective performance, disregarding what humans can hear. Isn't that all we do with these SINAD lists and reviews here? We put the 17K receiver in a list next to devices that are considerably cheaper and perform objectively better. And it basically stops there.

Based on just that information my only conclusion can be that the recommended label is rather meaningless. There are no compelling arguments in the review that would sway me to take a second glance at the device if I can get a better performing one or a fraction of the price.

As I said before: the reason for the recommendation is to be found in the comments. Would like to have seen that in the review though.

 

[abdo123]

These cherry picking stories continuously coming back are showing a complete ignorance of how electronics work. No better than cable lifters and audiophile switches.

while the cherry picking stories are completely bogus (they couldn't possibly design new circuits in that time), we still won't be able to see what 'little improvements' Trinnov made over the user's device.

Also keep in mind that this is a modular device (it's a mini-ATX motherboard with ADC, DAC and HDMI modules attached), so the modules can be constantly (and easily) improved without any announcement or notice from Trinnov.

it's a little shady, not gonna lie. But i rather have this outcome (if Amir will only measure one piece) than Amir receiving a faulty piece from a user (which happened on several occasions).

As long as Amir disclosed that he was sent a device directly by Trinnov it's okay imo.

 

[boXem]

Will stop here, don't want to do an Alanism.

 

[Absolute]

For those of us with more sensitive systems (+100 dB sensitivity) the amount of noise electronics produce is extremely important.
How can I determine how much hiss this thing will produce on my compression drivers with the SINAD number? I assume the noise remains rather constant across the board, so wouldn't it be nice to include the noise measured as uV?

 

[TimoJ]

These cherry picking stories continuously coming back are showing a complete ignorance of how electronics work. No better than cable lifters and audiophile switches.

Since they knew who the tester was, they could tweak DSP/DAC levels in order to gain better SINAD. Instead of 93-94dB, it now got 99dB. That ASR member unit was just recently bought (2-3 months?). So these improvements sure seem a weird coincidence. And to make it even sweeter they offered a free long time test unit. Guaranteed happy Panther.

 

[abdo123]

For those of us with more sensitive systems (+100 dB sensitivity) the amount of noise electronics produce is extremely important.
How can I determine how much hiss this thing will produce on my compression drivers with the SINAD number? I assume the noise remains rather constant across the board, so wouldn't it be nice to include the noise measured as uV?

the device is distortion limited, has SNR/DR of 108 dB without A-weighting and according to Trinnov with A-weighting it approaches 120 dB.

 

[Tovarich007]

Seeing the price and the performance figures, I really cannot understand why it would end up on the recommended list. It's obviously not broken, but for that price, I'd expect to get 110+ SINAD, but possibly the updates would get us there.

But looking at the feature set as described by @zorax2 however, that changes the whole story quite a bit. Personally, I would not spend the money either way, but it would definitely sway me towards the recommendation.

But who cares 110+SINAD ! Do you really think this would bring any audible difference, taking into account all the other considerations ?

It's strange that music lovers and audio fans are so much sensible to the trends of the time.

When I started this hobby, in the seventies, all was about distorsion and SNR. The best device was supposed the best on the test bench (which indeed was obviously not always the case). After that came in the eighties-nineties the "high end crazy subjectivism times" : the only thing that mattered was listening results and measumeents were supposed to fool you and your ears. A tube triode and its "warm" sound was supposed to sound much better than a good solid state pro or hifi state of the art amp. Of course this was absolutely untrue and stupid (not to mention the reliability question).

And nowadays, on the contrary, it seems that comes again the times of "the test bench junkies" who judge a component only thru test measurements...

At least, the measuremsnt made by serious and competent reviewers like Amir or by Erin are rather complete and clever, that means they are reliable.
But as useful a site like ASR can be, and it is much useful, I appreciate much Amir works, it has also its limits as anything in this world. You CANNOT judge thoroughly a device only thru a test bench measurements. You have also to question its build quality, reliability, connectivity, possibilities and quality of calibration or not, etc. and of course in the end listening.

I am fully aware that the listening differences between well done electronics are very tiny, sometimes undiscernable (this is quite different for speakers). But very tiny doesn't mean necessarily NULL and anyway an audio componnent is intended to be used and listened to, not only measured.

Once again, beyond a certain level of quality on the test bench, the differences of quality between components are to be searched elsewere.

So stop complaining about the SINAD level of this Trinnov, try it, use it, buy itif you can and then come back here to tell us what you think of it.

 

[voodooless]

But who cares 110+SINAD ! Do you really think this would bring any audible difference, taking into account all the other considerations ?

Read my other replies, that should make it very clear.