DO ALL DACS SOUND THE SAME??

[restorer-john]

I can hear on the video I uploaded, have you found any chance to have a look at?

There's distinct level differences between the DACs in your video with the Schiit sounding louder on those samples. And we have the putrid lossy compression from Youtube's audio.

 

[restorer-john]

Recorded on a microphone? lmao

How else do you think he can show what he hears? You'd be surprised how good those handheld Tascams are at capturing sounds better than our own ears.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

How else do you think he can show what he hears? You'd be surprised how good those handheld Tascams are at capturing sounds better than our own ears.

By hooking the output of the DAC back into an ADC, thereby cutting out user error in positioning the microphone, background noise, etc., all of which probably exceed the differences between the DACs.

 

[restorer-john]

By hooking the output of the DAC back into an ADC, thereby cutting out user error in positioning the microphone, background noise, etc., all of which probably exceed the differences between the DACs.

That is just electrical measurement. He is trying to capture what he hears. For that, he needs to make an acoustic recording. For instance, soundstage width or depth will not be conveyed electrically.

There's no "error in postioning" if he doesn't move the microphone/recorder or the speakers. Instead of typing snide comments like "LMAO", why not do some actual experiments yourself.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

That is just electrical measurement. He is trying to capture what he hears. For that, he needs to make an acoustic recording. For instance, soundstage width or depth will not be conveyed electrically.

There's no "error in postioning" if he doesn't move the microphone/recorder or the speakers. Instead of typing snide comments like "LMAO", why not do some actual experiments yourself.

Given that he couldn't level match properly, I doubt he was careful with the sound isolation of the room or the positioning of the microphone. Soundstage width and depth won't be conveyed no matter what, unless it's a binaural recording, since they're interactions with your body. Also, they're not relevant when discussing DACs, which are purely electrical devices.

The snide comment is in reference to the YouTuber who seems to believe this is a good comparison of 2 DACs.

How else do you think he can show what he hears? You'd be surprised how good those handheld Tascams are at capturing sounds better than our own ears.

I am absolutely certain that the noise added by that Tascam is perceptible (as in, much more than that added by either DAC). ADCs and microphones that are better than our own ears are incredibly expensive.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Imagine a world where all DACs do sound the same. Is that good or bad?

Imagine another world where you change nothing except the ADC. Does it sound the same or not? Assuming it does is that good or bad?

Secrets................of the audio world..............................whether it is always so or not, everything between the transducers can be transparent. Only transducers and how they are used matter. And how things are mixed, mastered and processed. The black boxes don't matter.

Think about it long and hard. From recording to final playback. Get your head around it. It is incredibly liberating if you do.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Imagine a world where all DACs do sound the same. Is that good or bad?

Imagine another world where you change nothing except the ADC. Does it sound the same or not? Assuming it does is that good or bad?

Secrets................of the audio world..............................whether it is always so or not, everything between the transducers can be transparent. Only transducers and how they are used matter. And how things are mixed, mastered and processed. The black boxes don't matter.

I mean, I'm with you. The microphone and speaker are usually by far the most limited components. But good ADCs are frustratingly expensive, unfortunately. I wish they were as cheap as DACs.

 

[restorer-john]

@BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp When you start making recordings of your entire HiFi system, using even a reasonably good quality PCM recorder and mics, you will be amazed.

What you think sounds awesome may sound dreadful when listened to over headphones. What you will recognize however is the sonic character of your entire room, particularly the reverberation and reflections your brain compensates for and you simply don't hear when in the room. You can walk outside and play the recording over headphones whilst in the garden and your brain will be confused as the sonic character of the room you know, doesn't match the space you are in.

These modern, low cost handheld recorders are truly something everyone interested in HiFi should experiment with. The ADCs are fine, it's the residual noise of the mic preamps that gets in the way at low levels.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

@BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp When you start making recordings of your entire HiFi system, using even a reasonably good quality PCM recorder and mics, you will be amazed.

What you think sounds awesome may sound dreadful when listened to over headphones. What you will recognize however is the sonic character of your entire room, particularly the reverberation and reflections your brain compensates for and you simply don't hear when in the room. You can walk outside and play the recording over headphones whilst in the garden and your brain will be confused as the character of the room you know, doesn't match the space you are in.

These modern, low cost handheld recorders are truly something everyone interested in HiFi should experiment with.

I don't doubt that you can make a recording that includes your room effects. I'm just saying it's a really terrible format to upload an A/B test for two DACs. I'd love to make binaural recordings for a similar effect to what you're saying - I've wanted a pair of ear canal-blocking microphones for a while to do that.

Another issue is I'm pretty sure that Tascam is mono, and those are stereo DACs. (edit: I was mistaken, the Tascam can do stereo. Howerver, probably still not the best fidelity after bouncing the sound across the room.)

 

[restorer-john]

'd love to make binaural recordings for a similar effect to what you're saying - I've wanted a pair of ear canal-blocking microphones for a while to do that.

@Blumlein 88 is a bit of an experienced field/venue recordist. He may have some ideas on those binaural in-ear mics. I've always figured the capsules would be too small for good results, but he would know.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

@Blumlein 88 is a bit of an experienced field/venue recordist. He may have some ideas on those binaural in ear mics. I've always figured the capsules would be too small for good results, but he would know.

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Impulcifer

I've been looking at this project, where you take a binaural recording to calculate your HRTF and then process regular stereo recordings with it.

 

[JSmith]

Has this really gone on for 11 pages?

Will there ever be an end to DAC "sound" threads? I think they start them on purpose to instil doubt into unsuspecting audio-enthusiasts minds.

TBH it's really weird that people focus on the "sound" of a DAC, yet ignore their speakers and room.

A DAC is a pretty simple little chip and it has a pretty simple job. If that job is done properly and well, then move on to something else in the chain and don't spend $10k on a DAC.



JSmith

 

[ReaderZ]

Do your blind test!

Not even level matched...

 

[Blumlein 88]

@Blumlein 88 is a bit of an experienced field/venue recordist. He may have some ideas on those binaural in-ear mics. I've always figured the capsules would be too small for good results, but he would know.

Actually I don't have anything useful to add about binaural. Binaural just doesn't work for me. My ears are assymetrical I think.

Now Mitchco suggests these are quite excellent. I've intentions of eventually trying them out.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Z4DGWO...colid=YZ61BTNRR8RL&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

 

[DeepSpace57]

"It's meant for fun and noticing some tonal differences that maybe survived microphone recording ... Recorded with: Tascam DR-22WL"

Recorded on a microphone? lmao

seems fine. Whats is the deal? even mic along with compressed format gives an insight.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I mean, I'm with you. The microphone and speaker are usually by far the most limited components. But good ADCs are frustratingly expensive, unfortunately. I wish they were as cheap as DACs.

But they are pretty inexpensive.

An RME Babyface Pro is pretty good for $799...........>OOPS, they've gone up to $949 I guess chip shortage related. Even something like the Focusrite Scarlett range of ADC's leave only a little on the table. Effectively close to nothing. A Motu M2 or M4 though in short supply are even better. Or try the Focusrite Clarret range.

I've got to where I feel guilty or something to bring it up, but look for my couple of threads where I've done 8 generations of DAC>ADC and over again. You get to download the original file to compare. Very modest equipment, and there isn't much wrong with it. You'll have to think one generation is a non-issue.

 

[DeepSpace57]

There's distinct level differences between the DACs in your video with the Schiit sounding louder on those samples. And we have the putrid lossy compression from Youtube's audio.

Have you ever tested your argument? how could you conclude the differences with level matching?

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

I've got to where I feel guilty or something to bring it up, but look for my couple of threads where I've done 8 generations of DAC>ADC and over again. You get to download the original file to compare. Very modest equipment, and there isn't much wrong with it. You'll have to think one generation is a non-issue.

Oh yeah, no doubt. I'm just saying an ADC with similar performance to a given DAC will cost a lot more. The type of performance necessary to detect differences between modern DACs is out of reach for any budget consumer. If the goal is "good enough to record audio", then that's a lower bar. I've been hovering over the buy button on one of those Motu units...

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

seems fine. Whats is the deal? even mic along with compressed format gives an insight.

The garbage YT compression introduces, along with (probably) what those microphones do to the audio, should far outstrip the flaws in those DACs. All a moot point because level matching needs to be done with electronics instrumentation, not by ear.

 

[Lupin]

The majority should sound all the same else Amirm used the therm "transparent" wrong for a long time.
One transparent DAC does not sound different from another transparent DAC else they are not transparent.

Even then the difference is not that big as people make it out to be.
In one review Amirm compared a "blue section" DAC with a "red section" DAC and the difference was just subtle and stated that many "untrained" ears might not even hear a difference at all. Yet people are ready to jump on the bandwagon and call a DAC trash and what not because that is the popular opinion the have about that DAC.

That is the main reason why I don't believe in expensive DACs.
Unless you really need (or want) a specific feature or form factor only offered by an expensive DAC I don't see why one need to spend more than 300 on a DAC, most certainly not for the "improved" sound quality.