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Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp

PaulD

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Whatever caused the 'space removal', the possibly non-existent level matching definitely has nothing to do with it.
Not true. The only way to match the levels properly is with an RMS voltmeter and a test signal (typically 1KHz). There is no mention that they did that, so the levels were unmatched.

Small level differences are perceived not as a difference in volume but as a difference in detail, including ambience, revere taels and so on - thus the "space removal".

I have A DAC3 in a mastering studio (feeding JBL M2s). It is as clean and transparent as any other top-of-the-range Doc that I have used.
 

restorer-john

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Not true. The only way to match the levels properly is with an RMS voltmeter and a test signal (typically 1KHz). There is no mention that they did that, so the levels were unmatched.

Level matching at 1kHz can also introduce issues where a product has a roll-off at one or other (or both) ends of the spectrum. Such products, regardless of careful level matching will be betrayed by detail loss at the top end or dryness (lack) of bass at the bottom end. Or a combination of both.

Thankfully, most DACs are pretty much ruler flat where it counts. Amplifiers, not so much, especially when delivering medium to high outputs.
 

pogo

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Small level differences are perceived not as a difference in volume but as a difference in detail, including ambience, revere taels and so on - thus the "space removal".

I disagree. When I make slight level adjustments (parametric EQ), my 'space' only changes in coloration. Maybe a few details will be covered, but definitely not a loss of space. Rather, it is about how a signal is followed, i.e. the impulse/transient behavior. And that could have been influenced here for some reason, e.g. reduction in resolution, ...
 

PaulD

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I disagree. ...
Sure, you can disagree, but you would be wrong. Or you are a unique human. Evidence shows that what I originally wrote is true and most humans respond to the small level changes as a perceived change of clarity.

Here is an excerpt from SIY's excellent Linear Audio article "Testing, One, Two Three"
3d. Level
There are lots of ways to consciously or unconsciously bias a listening test. I’ve run across several of them... A favorite trick in hifi showrooms is level. Curiously, small differences in level (<1dB) are not generally perceived as such. Our ear/brain tells us that the slightly louder choice sounds “clearer,” “more open,”or a similar descriptor. It doesn’t take much for sensitive listeners- some people can detect level changes as low as 0.1dB.

See https://linearaudio.net/volumes/783
 

pogo

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Nice that it is there and is also quoted. We are talking about 'space removal' here and not about '...sounds “clearer,” “more open,” ...'.
 

tmtomh

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Yep, I think it's well known (at least I hope it is) that listening comparisons have to be level matched with 0.1 dB.

By the way, for what it's worth (or was), CD's from different pressing plants can sound different, or could at any rate in the days when jitter wasn't well understood. Last I heard, which was decades ago, Sony was aware of and studying the problem, which they traced to variations in pit geometry.

It seems to me that most of the perceived difference between Red Book and high sample rate CD's is a consequence of mastering decisions rather than the sampling rate. However, we do know that the difference between 44.1 and higher sampling rates can be ABX'd.

Now here's an interesting one that surprised me no end when I learned of it -- people with impaired hearing, or who are listening to poor loudspeakers, can be more sensitive to compression artifacts because frequency response irregularities throw off the psychoacoustic masking.

Why do I mention all of this? Well, partly because it's interesting, but also because it's a reminder that we should never fall into the trap of assuming that we fully understand a situation. I agree with you regarding MQA and other points. However, not all evaluations are technical; good ears are not to be underestimated. And I would not call what I said an appeal to authority. To begin with, I was not trying to convince anyone, but pointing to my own assessment. But beyond that -- is the word of a doctor on a medical issue worth no more than the word of a barber? The Fallacy of Authority is commonly misunderstood. In my case, I took the word of a (fellow) professional more seriously than I would have taken the word of an audiophile. And while my work is on the technical end, I have a good deal of respect for the perceptions of recording and mastering engineers.

Which is to say that I continue to file this under the heading of "troubling but undetermined" rather than "audiophile nonsense" or "demonstrated in a controlled prospective study with 100,000 participants."

I mean, I probably would have laughed at the claim that CD pressings sound different, too . . .

Thanks for your reply. Let me clarify about CD pressings: I'm not aware of any evidence that particular pressing plants uniformly and consistently produced CDs whose physical properties produced jitter that was consistently inferior, to a degree that would be likely or plausible to be audibly detected, to CDs of the same albums pressed by other plants. For example, the notion that Led Zeppelin CDs pressed by Daio Kosan vs DADC vs WEA/SRC sounded different is a notion that, as far as I'm aware, has no evidence to back it up. Now, I have no doubt that if we found the right combination of discs and CD player models, we might be able to find certain batches of pressings from certain plants that might produce higher measurable jitter than other batches of pressings from other plants when played back on some CD players. Even then I would be skeptical that such differences would be audible - and I would be skeptical that the jitter would be in the "Golilocks" zone of badness whereby it would impact things like transients or soundstage and yet not be bad enough were it would fail to produce digital clicks or pops that would indicate it was tripping up the player's ability to properly read the data.

But even if the jitter were in that Goldilocks zone, that is still a far cry from the claims that are regularly made - and which I was referring to in my prior post - that all of the discs pressed by certain plants across spans of years at a time are consistently audibly discernible from the same albums pressed to CD by other plants. That is a much higher bar, and skepticism about it has nothing to do with close-mindedness.

As for the idea that the difference between 44.1 and higher sampling rates can be ABX'd, of course it can - we can test folks' ability to hear those differences. But testing for differences is not the same as finding them. And finding them does not tell us what folks were actually hearing if they were able to discern differences to a statistically significant degree. For example, if the original digital source is high-res and the 44.1k comparison is a resampled and dithered version of that original, you will find slightly different peak-level values (which are often more irregular on the 44.1k version and can even lead to DR values 1dB higher on 44.1k resamples of 96l originals). And there will be some alteration to the data from the dither as well. So in a scenario where differences were discernible between such files, is the difference the "higher resolution" and fidelity of high-res vs redbook? Or is the difference due to the fact that the combination of resampling and dithering alters the data in some way that is not 100% audibly transparent? Put another way, if a difference can be discerned between the two, does that automatically mean the high-res version is better? And if the answer - as I think it has to be - is No, then doesn't that throw the entire purpose of the comparison into question? (All of this is leaving aside, for the moment, the question of whether there are even valid studies with truly sound methodologies that have demonstrated a statistically significant audible difference between 44.1k and 96k sources.)

My point here is that while openness to new possibilities and further investigation is both good and the core of the entire scientific method, there's a lot of both-sides-ing in these debates, wherein certain important issues are ignored or discarded in an attempt to make certain implausible possibilities look like plausible possibilities or even things that have a 50-50 or better chance of being true.
 

josh358

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Thanks for your reply. Let me clarify about CD pressings: I'm not aware of any evidence that particular pressing plants uniformly and consistently produced CDs whose physical properties produced jitter that was consistently inferior, to a degree that would be likely or plausible to be audibly detected, to CDs of the same albums pressed by other plants. For example, the notion that Led Zeppelin CDs pressed by Daio Kosan vs DADC vs WEA/SRC sounded different is a notion that, as far as I'm aware, has no evidence to back it up. Now, I have no doubt that if we found the right combination of discs and CD player models, we might be able to find certain batches of pressings from certain plants that might produce higher measurable jitter than other batches of pressings from other plants when played back on some CD players. Even then I would be skeptical that such differences would be audible - and I would be skeptical that the jitter would be in the "Golilocks" zone of badness whereby it would impact things like transients or soundstage and yet not be bad enough were it would fail to produce digital clicks or pops that would indicate it was tripping up the player's ability to properly read the data.

But even if the jitter were in that Goldilocks zone, that is still a far cry from the claims that are regularly made - and which I was referring to in my prior post - that all of the discs pressed by certain plants across spans of years at a time are consistently audibly discernible from the same albums pressed to CD by other plants. That is a much higher bar, and skepticism about it has nothing to do with close-mindedness.

As for the idea that the difference between 44.1 and higher sampling rates can be ABX'd, of course it can - we can test folks' ability to hear those differences. But testing for differences is not the same as finding them. And finding them does not tell us what folks were actually hearing if they were able to discern differences to a statistically significant degree. For example, if the original digital source is high-res and the 44.1k comparison is a resampled and dithered version of that original, you will find slightly different peak-level values (which are often more irregular on the 44.1k version and can even lead to DR values 1dB higher on 44.1k resamples of 96l originals). And there will be some alteration to the data from the dither as well. So in a scenario where differences were discernible between such files, is the difference the "higher resolution" and fidelity of high-res vs redbook? Or is the difference due to the fact that the combination of resampling and dithering alters the data in some way that is not 100% audibly transparent? Put another way, if a difference can be discerned between the two, does that automatically mean the high-res version is better? And if the answer - as I think it has to be - is No, then doesn't that throw the entire purpose of the comparison into question? (All of this is leaving aside, for the moment, the question of whether there are even valid studies with truly sound methodologies that have demonstrated a statistically significant audible difference between 44.1k and 96k sources.)

My point here is that while openness to new possibilities and further investigation is both good and the core of the entire scientific method, there's a lot of both-sides-ing in these debates, wherein certain important issues are ignored or discarded in an attempt to make certain implausible possibilities look like plausible possibilities or even things that have a 50-50 or better chance of being true.
I actually doubt that there's an audible difference anymore -- this was from the days when jitter was not well understood. People were hearing it, in fact, I learned about it at an AES presentation when someone said that different pressings sounded different to him, and David Smith of Sony said that they were aware of the problem and working on it. But that was decades ago, and I'm also skeptical of the notion that different plants consistently better or worse sound.

I agree that the cause of the ABX'd difference in CD's could be an artifact, but then, real-world artifacts can be an issue. There are always doubts of this sort. My instinct is to say that because it can be ABX'd, it makes sense to use a higher sampling rate. It certainly doesn't do any harm, and because in my experience and that of many others you can hear a difference between 44.1 reconstruction filters, I'm even more inclined to play it safe. (Of course, we could be imagining the difference between reconstruction filters -- I don't know if anyone has ABX'd this.)

Agree with you about the either/or debates. It can become almost a religion to some. I accept that there's a penumbra of sorts, in which we just don't know. And it can be dangerous to take uncontrolled subjective opinions too carefully, just as it can be dangerous to assume that our engineering knowledge is sufficient to cover all possibilities -- I originally made that mistake with the audibility of MP3's, assuming that the difference was more audible on good systems when, surprisingly, the opposite is true.
 

Rusty Shackleford

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What interested me about the review is that it was made in the studio by pros, so I don't think this is audiophile imagination. But I agree -- I don't see how a properly functioning and connected DAC3 fed the right bits could do that, and I agree that it would probably show up on the tests.

What review?
 

josh358

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Sorry, I should have been clearer -- it wasn't a formal review, but something someone said here. I don't remember where, but maybe someone else does?
 

tmtomh

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I actually doubt that there's an audible difference anymore -- this was from the days when jitter was not well understood. People were hearing it, in fact, I learned about it at an AES presentation when someone said that different pressings sounded different to him, and David Smith of Sony said that they were aware of the problem and working on it. But that was decades ago, and I'm also skeptical of the notion that different plants consistently better or worse sound.

I agree that the cause of the ABX'd difference in CD's could be an artifact, but then, real-world artifacts can be an issue. There are always doubts of this sort. My instinct is to say that because it can be ABX'd, it makes sense to use a higher sampling rate. It certainly doesn't do any harm, and because in my experience and that of many others you can hear a difference between 44.1 reconstruction filters, I'm even more inclined to play it safe. (Of course, we could be imagining the difference between reconstruction filters -- I don't know if anyone has ABX'd this.)

Agree with you about the either/or debates. It can become almost a religion to some. I accept that there's a penumbra of sorts, in which we just don't know. And it can be dangerous to take uncontrolled subjective opinions too carefully, just as it can be dangerous to assume that our engineering knowledge is sufficient to cover all possibilities -- I originally made that mistake with the audibility of MP3's, assuming that the difference was more audible on good systems when, surprisingly, the opposite is true.

Thanks again for your reply. Fair enough!
 

pogo

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I still have unanswered questions:

I asked Benchmark several times whether the DF of 350 on the AHB2 is correct, without getting an answer.
Soundstagenetwork measured <300. I then asked the following questions:
Does the AHB2 have a series scattering with regard to the damping factor (see Soundstagenetwork re-measurement, which is below the spec) !?
However, at low levels, most amplifier designs have a damping factor that is 5-10 times lower. Can you provide any DF data regarding different levels?
The internal resistance of an amplifier is also essentially dependent on the circuitry temperature and the load. Do you have any further data on this?
What would the answers look like in bridged mode too?

Perhaps there is a member here who can provide well-founded information on this.
 

Andrew s

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pogo

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Gorgonzola

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Of course I know this two-dimensional approach, but it doesn't answer my questions and certainly doesn't consider the time axis (i.e. the swing-out behavior of an loudspeaker).
I don't know about the Benchmark but my Purifi 1ET400A-based amp has the most dynamic and precise bass of any of the over a dozen quality amps I've use in my main system over the years. The Purifi's damping factor per specs is <65uOhms at 1 kHz. Given my speakers are 8 ohms over almost all their range and connected to the amp with low impedance speaker cables, means the nominal Damping Factor is over 100,000. o_O
 

Andrew s

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Of course I know this two-dimensional approach, but it doesn't answer my questions and certainly doesn't consider the time axis (i.e. the swing-out behavior of an loudspeaker).
Might I ask why you want to know? Do you have a specific problem are you trying to solve or understand. Regards Andrew
 

RichB

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Thanks for your reply. Let me clarify about CD pressings: I'm not aware of any evidence that particular pressing plants uniformly and consistently produced CDs whose physical properties produced jitter that was consistently inferior, to a degree that would be likely or plausible to be audibly detected, to CDs of the same albums pressed by other plants. For example, the notion that Led Zeppelin CDs pressed by Daio Kosan vs DADC vs WEA/SRC sounded different is a notion that, as far as I'm aware, has no evidence to back it up. Now, I have no doubt that if we found the right combination of discs and CD player models, we might be able to find certain batches of pressings from certain plants that might produce higher measurable jitter than other batches of pressings from other plants when played back on some CD players. Even then I would be skeptical that such differences would be audible - and I would be skeptical that the jitter would be in the "Golilocks" zone of badness whereby it would impact things like transients or soundstage and yet not be bad enough were it would fail to produce digital clicks or pops that would indicate it was tripping up the player's ability to properly read the data.

But even if the jitter were in that Goldilocks zone, that is still a far cry from the claims that are regularly made - and which I was referring to in my prior post - that all of the discs pressed by certain plants across spans of years at a time are consistently audibly discernible from the same albums pressed to CD by other plants. That is a much higher bar, and skepticism about it has nothing to do with close-mindedness.

As for the idea that the difference between 44.1 and higher sampling rates can be ABX'd, of course it can - we can test folks' ability to hear those differences. But testing for differences is not the same as finding them. And finding them does not tell us what folks were actually hearing if they were able to discern differences to a statistically significant degree. For example, if the original digital source is high-res and the 44.1k comparison is a resampled and dithered version of that original, you will find slightly different peak-level values (which are often more irregular on the 44.1k version and can even lead to DR values 1dB higher on 44.1k resamples of 96l originals). And there will be some alteration to the data from the dither as well. So in a scenario where differences were discernible between such files, is the difference the "higher resolution" and fidelity of high-res vs redbook? Or is the difference due to the fact that the combination of resampling and dithering alters the data in some way that is not 100% audibly transparent? Put another way, if a difference can be discerned between the two, does that automatically mean the high-res version is better? And if the answer - as I think it has to be - is No, then doesn't that throw the entire purpose of the comparison into question? (All of this is leaving aside, for the moment, the question of whether there are even valid studies with truly sound methodologies that have demonstrated a statistically significant audible difference between 44.1k and 96k sources.)

My point here is that while openness to new possibilities and further investigation is both good and the core of the entire scientific method, there's a lot of both-sides-ing in these debates, wherein certain important issues are ignored or discarded in an attempt to make certain implausible possibilities look like plausible possibilities or even things that have a 50-50 or better chance of being true.

A zero-based view of an ABX confirmed difference is that it could be due to accuracy, possibly shifting the reconstruction filter, or inaccuracy, modulation into the audible range. Since this cannot be established for all playback systems, I'll ere on getting the best masters.
Unfortunately, that may not be a remastered Hi-Res version since many also include the application of additional compression.

I do not find that the AHB2, Salon2s, and 126Bes make recordings sound worse because I appreciate the ability to resolve the source.
Accurate headphones will have the same issues.
The solution, for those seeking one, is EQ not degraded reproduction, IMO of course.

- Rich
 

RichB

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Not true. The only way to match the levels properly is with an RMS voltmeter and a test signal (typically 1KHz). There is no mention that they did that, so the levels were unmatched.

Small level differences are perceived not as a difference in volume but as a difference in detail, including ambience, revere taels and so on - thus the "space removal".

I have A DAC3 in a mastering studio (feeding JBL M2s). It is as clean and transparent as any other top-of-the-range Doc that I have used.

For these listening sessions, the amplifiers were matched within .1 dB (as best I could) using an accurate voltmeter.
Actually, this matching proved a bit difficult. The AHB2 measured a steady 2.85 volts where the AT522NC which varied by 2.72 to 2.86.
This may be due to voltage variance from the power line but, even so, it is interesting.

Concerning .1 dB level matching, I was, let's just say, "challenged" on another site claiming that .1 is not needed. That in-room it should be 1 dB or more is not detectable. The need to support ones position can overtake reason. How can accurate level matching be bad?

- Rich
 
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