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old, crappy tape deck advice...

rdenney

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So, I inherited several bins of old open-reel tapes from my father, who passed away recently. These bins are recordings of lectures from half a century ago that I consider to be irreplaceable, and personally deeply important. So, naturally, I wish to preserve them in a more sustainable form. Many are recorded at 1-7/8 inches/second, which was acceptable for voice, but there are a some music tapes recorded at higher speeds. Most good decks don't go that slow, but I'm figuring (without having actually explored the matter) that cutting the speed in half in software will be trivially easy and no worse that going slower in the first place.

I have two old open-reel tape machines: A cheapie Sony TC-355, with rather severely worn heads, and a much nicer Teac A-4010. The Sony was in a cabinet in my father's office, but I do not recall him ever owning a Sony (I think he may have had a Realistic open-reel player back in the day). The Teac was mine, and I bought it used from a guy who had trouble with it, thinking I could fix it. Which I did at the time and used it for some years before it became flaky again.

The Sony uses a single motor and a bunch of idler wheels and linkages to pipe the motion around to where it is needed. It took me about 20 minutes to put all that right well enough to get a sense of the machine. I thought it might be easier to make the Sony work because of that mechanical linkage, instead of relay-logic driving solenoids as with three-motor decks, and I was right--the mechanics work...okay. Wow and flutter is noticeable, which is not surprising given that the idler wheels have turned to granite, but the concept was proved well enough that I could probably find replacements for the idlers to help with that. But the sound through those deeply grooved heads was just unbearable, even considering the low-fi recordings. Replacing heads is beyond my interest in the project, and probably beyond my skill. Plus, I don't own a proper test tape.

So, in a fit of gusto, I went to the store-room and unearthed the old Teac and hauled it downstairs. I had set about to rebuild this machine about 30 years ago, and never did so, but at least I kept all the bits. For anyone like me who loves machines, these are remarkable contraptions, and one can't imagine anyone making anything like them now for any reasonable sum of money.

I replaced the crumbled capstan belt and the distorted counter belt, disassembled and cleaned the capstan bearings, likewise the slip clutch on the capstan motor that prevents a change in direction from breaking the tape (this deck has bi-directional playback), and cleaned and oiled the motors and solenoids and linkages. The heads are perfect, the pinch roller is really still in excellent condition, and now that the bearings are clean and relubricated, the things that spin do so effortlessly and noiselessly. The pinch roller snaps up and down just as it is supposed to, but often doesn't if YouTube is to be trusted. All that took a couple of evenings and maybe fifty bucks in materials.

I ordered a bunch of axial film capacitors to replace the oil-and-paper snubber caps on all the microswitches and relay outputs (they have not yet arrived), and used up half a can of DeOxit on the pots and switches throughout. All the solenoids work perfectly now, and give that satisfying THUNK! that tells the world this is a serious piece of equipment and not some black plastic crap. I even cleaned up the black dirt spot that somehow made it to the rug before I was found out.

But all is not well in ancient-Teac-land. The audio output is badly tainted by power-supply noise, so I'm sure there are leaky caps in the power supply that need to be replaced. That I expected, though there is also distortion that makes me wonder if the germanium transistors Teac used in this old machine are also in trouble. I might get better audio from the playback preamp, which is externally piped through the record preamp, which is a separate product housed in the same wood cabinet. But what I didn't expect was that whatever the circuit uses (it's a relay) to switch voltages to the reel motors doesn't recover from fast wind, with the result that the reel motors don't come on after winding. That's what put this machine on the shelf in the first place--the relays are unobtainium and a flaky relay that has been cleaned properly might be a flaky coil that demands replacement.

I suppose I could take it apart further and continue to fix it, buying parts from other Teacs being parted out, but suddenly that gusto has faded, and has been replaced by a far deeper level of foolishness. If I had confidence that it would work, I'd probably be willing to invest the several more hours it would take to replace caps and relays and so on. The deeper foolishness would have me add to the pile with another deck that will still probably need those hours, but that is already at a more confidence-inspiring starting point.

So, to the lovers of vintage equipment in general and open-reel decks in particular (@restorer-john, etc.), talk me back from the edge: I'm pondering the purchase of a slightly newer Teac A-4300SX or something similar--much newer electronics (no germaniums, better caps, etc.), a plausible claim that it works presently, and return privileges. I think I can sneak half a kilobuck or a bit more past the Redhead, but not the over-a-kilobuck price that properly serviced decks seem to fetch you-know-where.

Rick "calling all therapists!" Denney
 

Robin L

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Rather than attempting to rebuilt the Titanic, have you considered finding someone else who has managed to properly maintain a working r to r recorder, make the transfers and be done with it?

I've been pouring through back issues [is there any other kind?] of Stereo Review and High Fidelity magazines. Back around 1965, those publications were heavily hyping reel to reel decks, most from companies you never heard of. All pre-digital, some overlapping with tube, notable for the excessive number of twiddly bits required for design and manufacture, all parts destined to go out of adjustment, sooner rather than later, the lot of them appearing to be using different parts. Maintaining a musically functional LP player is hard enough, reel to reel decks are another magnitude of quantum entanglement higher. It doesn't sound like you have enough reels to justify keeping a tape deck around. Of course, you might be a tweak-a-holic and any practical advice could be falling on deaf ears.
 
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rdenney

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Rather than attempting to rebuilt the Titanic, have you considered finding someone else who has managed to properly maintain a working r to r recorder, make the transfers and be done with it?

I've been pouring through back issues [is there any other kind?] of Stereo Review and High Fidelity magazines. Back around 1965, those publications were heavily hyping reel to reel decks, most from companies you never heard of. All pre-digital, some overlapping with tube, notable for the excessive number of twiddly bits required for design and manufacture, all parts destined to go out of adjustment, sooner rather than later, te lot of them appearing to be using different parts. Maintaining a musically functional LP player is hard enough, reel to reel decks are another magnitude of quantum entanglement higher. It doesn't sound like you have enough reels to justify keeping a tape deck around. Of course, you might be a tweak-a-holic and any practical advice could be falling on deaf ears.

I do appreciate the appeal to sanity, but it's just not working.

I have about 200 tapes--too many to impose on a friend with a working deck, and more costly to hire the service than to put it together myself. Plus, mailing or shipping these tapes is not an option in any of several dimensions. They were part of what I drove back in my car 1500 miles, because there was no other way I was willing to trust.

I'm only approximately a tweaker, but I do enjoy making things work up to a point. I'd certainly rather mess with an open-reel deck than a cassette deck. Which is no evidence of sanity, of course.

Rick "not expecting this to be a permanent part of music listening" Denney
 

AdamG

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I do appreciate the appeal to sanity, but it's just not working.

I have about 200 tapes--too many to impose on a friend with a working deck, and more costly to hire the service than to put it together myself. Plus, mailing or shipping these tapes is not an option in any of several dimensions. They were part of what I drove back in my car 1500 miles, because there was no other way I was willing to trust.

I'm only approximately a tweaker, but I do enjoy making things work up to a point. I'd certainly rather mess with an open-reel deck than a cassette deck. Which is no evidence of sanity, of course.

Rick "not expecting this to be a permanent part of music listening" Denney
My deepest condolences on the recent loss of your Father.
 

Robin L

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I do appreciate the appeal to sanity, but it's just not working.

I have about 200 tapes--too many to impose on a friend with a working deck, and more costly to hire the service than to put it together myself. Plus, mailing or shipping these tapes is not an option in any of several dimensions. They were part of what I drove back in my car 1500 miles, because there was no other way I was willing to trust.

I'm only approximately a tweaker, but I do enjoy making things work up to a point. I'd certainly rather mess with an open-reel deck than a cassette deck. Which is no evidence of sanity, of course.

Rick "not expecting this to be a permanent part of music listening" Denney
Hope the folks with more experience in this realm chime in, but your situation reminds me of when I needed a functioning DAT recorder, managed to get a nice, fully functional pro level [44.1k, XLR in and out] Denon for $70 via ebay. Eventually gave that away, that's how fast audio tech morphs. Not that I expect you to dole out $70 and find your dream machine. $500 sounds realistic. But input from people more experienced with r to r machines would help a lot. My primary experience was with a two-track, 7 & 1/2 & 15 ips that could take 10" reels, the Tascam 32. It really sucked. I used the antique Ampex machines at KPFA, they were an electro-mechanical delight in comparison. But the Tascam 32 was a jerky, moody, bad sounding piece of gear. I had at least 3 cassette decks that had better sound quality/functionality. My advice: don't get a Tascam 32.
 
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rdenney

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An old friend of mine is a broadcast engineer. Back in the deeps of time, when we were roommates (and even before then), he owned a Tascam 80-8 for laying tracks and a 22-2 half-track machine for mastering. He used Ampex 456 and tweaked those machines specially for that tape. I don't hear any remorse when he tells me that he sold it all. (I do hear a bit of that remorse when he talks of having sold his Phase Linear 400 amp.) He did send me the masters of a group I was in that he recorded (using a three-mike technique) when he sold it all. I get to look at them, but whatever machine I get won't support the half-track format--all the other tapes are four-track.

The A-series Teacs have a good reputation for reparability, at least within the arcane context of these preposterous machines. And the relay/solenoid controls are less apt to get out of adjustment than the maze of linkages one finds in idler-driven tape machines, like the similarly priced Akai decks. I gather some of the Pioneers were quite good, but they fetch prices as preposterous as the machine itself. The X-series Teacs likewise, but they are not beloved of technicians. The failing in mine, however, seems not to be the machinery, but rather the primitive solid-state electronics. I really think solid-state electronics crossed a reliability threshold (for the better) in the early 70's, when components technologies (perhaps primarily silicon transistors) emerged. The late-70's stuff I own seems to work just fine with a few shots of DeOxit and maybe a new cap here and there, even compared to more recent stuff, where the machinery was made more cheaply and the expectations of features were much greater.

One reads of finding pristine old tape machines in garage and estate sales for twenty bucks, but that sort of thing rarely happens to me.

Everyone wants tape deck in their living room to make them look hip, but the hip decks all have 10" reels on them. Those sells for more. The Teac 4300 is just like the well-respected 6300, except that it only supports 7" reels and doesn't turn at 15 ips. Sounds like a unique buying opportunity for me.

Rick "hoping to hear opinions from Australia this evening :)" Denney
 
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rdenney

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My deepest condolences on the recent loss of your Father.
Thank you. He was watching his beloved college team play in a bowl game, and sipping his favorite brandy, when he slipped away. We should all be so fortunate and blessed to slip away with so little suffering at age 92.

Rick "amazed by some of the things he left behind" Denney
 

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If you can't find a machine that does 1 7/8 ips, you should be able to find one that does 3 3/4 fairly easily. Replay the tapes and record them to a PC. Audacity can do the recording, then one of its effects is to change the speed, so you can go back to 1 7/8 ips electronically. You can also change the EQ and reduce noise appropriately.

As the tapes are irreplaceable, do demagnetise the tape deck before running any of the tapes. A tape demagger is an essential tool with tape.

S.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Yes, tape machines are whole 'nother level of 'involvement'. My best advise would be to find a working machine on ebay, something such as the Pioneer RT707, which is one I used to own and kick myself for selling. 1 7/8 is relatively rare, so your plan to cut the speed in software will work. Just be aware that playback equalization for different tape speeds is different, and at super slow speeds like 1 7/8, there were no hard standards. So be prepared to equalize the final result in your software to get the tonal balance to what you think is right (there's no precise numbers here!).

I've specialized in reel to reel tape machines my whole life; they can be tremendously fun to tweak with if you like tweaking with twiddly things and don't mind purchasing test tapes and such. For transferring in your case, I'd recommend you find a machine in good condition and copy the tapes. You can sell the machine to some fool downstream when you're done with the project. ;)
 
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rdenney

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Yes, tape machines are whole 'nother level of 'involvement'. My best advise would be to find a working machine on ebay, something such as the Pioneer RT707, which is one I used to own and kick myself for selling. 1 7/8 is relatively rare, so your plan to cut the speed in software will work. Just be aware that playback equalization for different tape speeds is different, and at super slow speeds like 1 7/8, there were no hard standards. So be prepared to equalize the final result in your software to get the tonal balance to what you think is right (there's no precise numbers here!).

I've specialized in reel to reel tape machines my whole life; they can be tremendously fun to tweak with if you like tweaking with twiddly things and don't mind purchasing test tapes and such. For transferring in your case, I'd recommend you find a machine in good condition and copy the tapes. You can sell the machine to some fool downstream when you're done with the project. ;)
The notion of buying, using, and then selling is more good sense that I will probably ignore until the machine no longer has any value whatsoever.

A quick look in my camera closet reveals the fundamental character flaw that prevents following such good advice. :facepalm:

Rick "buy high, sell low" Denney
 
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rdenney

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I don't know the first thing about tape decks, but I see that some libraries let you make transfers
https://www.lapl.org/memorylab/reel
If I had a couple of tapes, that would make perfect sense. But with a couple of hundred tapes, doing this at a library would be a challenge.

It's neat that some libraries provide this service. Lots of our history gets lost because the recording format suddenly becomes obsolete and unavailable for playback. I used to borrow open-reel tapes all the time from the University of Texas library, and in those days used open-reel tape to make needledrops. Those are now long gone, but now that I'm thinking about it, they included some stuff that is profoundly out of print now.

Rick "computer data requires just as much care to ensure sustainability" Denney
 

Robin L

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I have about 200 tapes--too many to impose on a friend with a working deck, and more costly to hire the service than to put it together myself. Plus, mailing or shipping these tapes is not an option in any of several dimensions. They were part of what I drove back in my car 1500 miles, because there was no other way I was willing to trust.
I'd think 200 tapes passes the threshold where you might want another gadget in the house. Good luck in your search.
 
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rdenney

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By the way, I looked at Pioneer RT-707's and similar, because the form factor is favorable. But the price is not--those puppies really fetch a premium.

Rick "still looking" Denney
 
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rdenney

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Don't go too far down the road of knockin' them ol' single-motor, mechanical control Sony consumer decks too fast...
https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/193216/sony-tc-350-is-a-ken-kessler-recommendation
The earlier Sonys had steel heads and mine have 1/16”-deep grooves in them. Later models had ferrite/permalloy heads and did better. The idler drive, well, works, or it did after I dissolved the grease-crete. But without usable heads, who cares?

Rick “worn out is worn out” Denney
 
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rdenney

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Well, after a fresh effort this evening, the old A-4010 was much closer to fully operational. I discovered that the reel-motor relay was much too corroded to submit to my previous cleaning, and I had to remove the board altogether so I could rub the contacts with DeOxit-soaked paper. This is the most difficult relay to access in the whole machine. That did the trick as far as tape handling goes—it’s now perfect.

Surprisingly, that also repaired a lot of the channel noise I was getting—not solidly connecting all three sets of contacts on that relay fed a lot of motor noise from the reel motors into the audio circuits.

The noise that’s left is in the preamp, and sounds like leaky cap noise to me.

And then as I was sitting here—BANG!—followed by smoke curling up into the room.

This thing has about a dozen 0.1 uF paper-in-oil caps to buffer the various micro switches and relays. The one that is actuated by the left-reel brake linkage let go. These aren’t called firecracker caps for nothing. I have a bag of replacements from Radio Daze on the way, but replacing them all is going to take a bunch of time.

I’ll probably buy a mate for it and then put this back in the fixit pile, much closer to the front of the line. Something may actually get sold eventually.

Still trying to assess what the replacement might be. I’m still leaning towards an A-4300–basically the same spot in the lineup but about a decade newer.

If I was smart, I’d get one with 1-7/8. But I’m not smart.

Also, I discovered how my father was economizing on tape. He recorded separate lectures on left and right channels. Now, I’m looking at channel separation specs.

Rick “and you thought snap, crackle, pop was just for vinyl” Denney
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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Also, I discovered how my father was economizing on tape. He recorded separate lectures on left and right channels. Now, I’m looking at channel separation specs.

Are these tapes 1/4 track stereo, 1/2 track stereo or 1/2 track mono? I wouldn't bother putting much stock into channel separation specs in any event since in what you are doing, you're not likely to have much problem with crosstalk if the heads are aligned pretty well (the height adjustment is most important toward optimizing crosstalk). Crosstalk is only an audible problem (assuming the heads are aligned) at lower frequencies like <200Hz or so, and is more severe on 1/4 track because of the fact that tracks are closer and programs are running in opposite directions and the backward nature can cause attention to itself. You are not likely to have strong enough bass frequencies on voice recordings to be a problem.

If the heads are grooved at all, I wouldn't try to adjust height - it won't work because the tape will refuse to ride properly on the head. If they are grooved, even a little, you have the choice to leave them as-is and assume they were properly aligned at one point, or lapping them down (keeping the same profile of the face of the head) and re-installing them. But of course that's a lot of hassle and requires a test tape if you want to get the alignment perfect. For voice, adjusting azimuth by ear is probably OK.
 
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rdenney

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The heads on the Teac are pristine. The Sony has Utah-style canyons :)

The tapes are quarter-track. I didn’t have much noticeable crosstalk, except one tape that had a music background that I could hear in the other channel. The main effect of recording separately by channel is that I have to mix the transcriptions to mono, and I have twice as much of a project as I thought.

These recordings were all made on an affordable tape player from the 60’s—probably a Realistic. My father bought that player in 1965 or ‘66–he recorded our family’s Christmas morning before telling anyone he’d bought it, hiding it behind a chair. That became a family legend.

He used it for some of the recordings—I remember the events. Others were probably made using another machine and duplicated. I am likely to find a whole history of low-fi misalignments in some of these recordings, so I’ll have to play some games to get them transcribed as well as possible. I can certainly EQ them—I’ll probably use Vinyl Studio, which has a strong feature set.

Rick “all the tapes appear to be in perfect condition” Denney
 
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rdenney

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Update: Yup, Teac 4300 on the way. Same range as the 4010, but a decade newer. No oil caps, and no early germanium transistors. Same three beefy AC motors, same solenoid controls (though with more logic), same head arrangement, and even better general reparability. I’ll probably end up with two functional Teac decks when I can hardly justify one. Such is the disease.

Rick “a fool and his money and all that” Denney
 
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