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Massdrop x Meze 99 Noir Review (Headphone)

max233

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I can't stand over emphasized bass. Give me a crashing cymbal any day. I tried some of the EQ settings as listed here on other phones and I thought it totally ruined the sound. Those are quite possible the ugliest headphones ever.
 
D

Deleted member 4360

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I can't stand over emphasized bass. Give me a crashing cymbal any day. I tried some of the EQ settings as listed here on other phones and I thought it totally ruined the sound. Those are quite possible the ugliest headphones ever.
What no one is talking about is the bass quality. These are absolutely terrible. Muddy. Loose. I was actually pissed about buying these as everyone raved about them on Drop. They left my collection in days back to Drop.
 

Sean Olive

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I wonder if “a very useful low anchor” could be spun into a marketing sales pitch? ;)
References or anchors are always useful for audio training and testing.. They don't always have to be at the top of the quality scale, in fact, it's good to have high/medium/low anchors to encourage consistent use of the scale across the entire range of the scale and minimize scaling biases, as recommended by the ITU-R 5134 (MUSHRA) test method.

I am grateful that this headphone produced such consistent low ratings: "It helped advance the science of perception and measurement of headphone sound quality". How's that for a marketing spin? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSHRA
 
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These headphones could be perceived as fun. For me they sounded quite broken. Even after EQ I didn't like the sound of the highs, which can be overly sibilant.
 

Zensō

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References or anchors are always useful for audio training and testing.. They don't always have to be at the top of the quality scale, in fact, it's good to have high/medium/low anchors to encourage consistent use of the scale across the entire range of the scale and minimize scaling biases, as recommended by the ITU-R 5134 (MUSHRA) test method.

I am grateful that this headphone produced such consistent low ratings: "It helped advance the science of perception and measurement of headphone sound quality". How's that for a marketing spin? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSHRA
Ha! Perfect! :D

Seriously, thanks for the background information - very interesting and much appreciated!
 

WickedInsignia

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You gotta get away from the mindset of "objective good" when it comes to music. People can like what they like. They can also like what they like while also understanding what "good" really is.

It's like David Chang. Dude is an amazing chef but he also loves trashy food too. He understands what "good" is, but can appreciate other things for what they are.
With respect, this argument is more welcome on somewhere like HeadFi. Everything has a redeeming feature! The bass isn't muddy and overbearing, it's thick like a chocolate cake! The soundstage isn't lacking in presence, it's just ethereal!
Of course people can like what they like. There will always be an audience for even the most objectively crap audio products in the world.

Here's the kicker: "objective good" is the only one that matters in consumer sales and recommendations. The Meze isn't "good", some people just like it. Those people are major outliers, as proven by Sean Olive's research. I was going to bring up the fact that the 99 Classics were a low-anchor point in preference research but I'm very thankful that Mr. Olive has shown up to express that himself.
We don't recommend headphones to outliers: we recommend them to the general public. There's no use recommending something that 20% of people might like.

The "fun" you're hearing isn't even designed. It's the result of a 3rd revision pad replacement with a wider diameter than the original pads, which blew the bass way out of proportion and Meze never bothered to retune. You may as well boot up your EQ and flick the sliders at random, because you'll get about as well-informed a sound.

No-one is being helped by recommending this headphone. There are far better headphones at stock tuning that will respond even better to EQ. Most headphones could likely be EQ'd to the hilariously deficient FR this one exhibits, so what's the case for a purchase?
Luckily for David Chang, junk food doesn't cost a few hundred dollars.
 
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Helicopter

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Thanks Amir and Sean.

I will be avoiding Meze at least until something changes... unless I end up needing a "low anchor." :facepalm:
 

WickedInsignia

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A timeline of the ear pad debacle with the 99 Classics/Neo/Noir, which explains their odd "tuning":
  • Tyll at Innerfidelity measured the original 99 Classics with the 1st gen pads and found them to be very pleasing, without over-the-top bass and a great FR. This is where their positive status originated. The Classics were indeed a great headphone in the beginning.
  • Many comfort complaints were made about the original pads on a variety of forums and in reviews.
  • Meze developed a 2nd-gen pad that was wider and deeper to improve comfort. This fundamentally changed the sound and resulted in overblown bass, among other deficiencies.
  • No retuning or redesigning of the internals was pursued to fit these new pads (as far as I know from various sources online).
  • Tyll remeasured/relistened with these pads and found the sound to be exponentially worse. They were removed from the wall of fame and no longer recommended by him. He would "rather listen to the M50x".
  • A 3rd gen pad (current) was developed that is shallower but wider than the 2nd gen. The overblown bass was not resolved. I had a pair with these pads and returned them due to severe comfort issues and of course the sound.
  • The 99 Neo was released. These have the 3rd gen pad and a black material cover over the driver grill that wasn't present on the original 99 Classics.
  • Tyll measured the Neo and found it to be just as deficient in the bass, while also sounding slightly more artificial than the 99C.
  • Around the same time (?) the Drop 99 Noir is released. This ships with two pads: the 3rd gen pads and a new "small" pad. This small pad is designed to replicate the 1st gen pads that shipped with the original 99 Classics.
  • Meze also now sells these "small" pads in their online store for the 99 Classics and Neo. In both this case and the Noir they are manufactured by a different company than the original pads, to a similar spec.
  • At some point after the Neo, the 99 classics gain a fabric cover over the driver grill as well. This does not meaningfully change the sound to my knowledge.
  • From what I can gather, the small pads do not replicate the original sound signature as per user experience and measurements (I can't quite remember which, might have been Crinacle or someone else).
  • Thus, the original sound is lost. Unfortunately if someone was lucky enough to find the original pads, they would most likely experience discomfort issues.
I read through all 400+ pages of the Meze 99C thread on Head Fi around the time I owned my own pair, along with perusing a lot of the measurements and reviews available online. This is the conclusion I could deduce from user experience, reviews and posts from Meze themselves.
 

Maiky76

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Massdrop x Meze 99 Noir closed back headphone. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $200. I understand it is identical to Meze 99 Classic which the company sells for a lot more money.

The 99 Noir has a quirky look that is unique and for me, comfortable:

View attachment 127991

Dual mono 3.5 mm removable plugs are provided which fit very tightly. They are long and narrow so if you need to replace them, you have to get something that is the same.

The 99 Noir is pretty light headphone at 270 grams. Inside cup dimensions are 65x50x19 (height x weight x depth).

The measurements you are about to see are made using a standardized Gras 45C. I searched for any and all measurements I could find online. Alas while a number of them are close to mine, none are using the exact fixture down to coupler and pinna. As you will see, I have confirmed the approximate accuracy of the measurements using Equalization and listening tests. Ultimately headphone measurements are less exact than speakers above a few kilohertz so keep that in mind as you read these tests.

Getting a good fit was easy with both channels matching each other at my two targets on the first install.

Massdrop x Meze 99 Noir Measurements
There is nothing more important than frequency response of a headphone as each is seemingly different and that difference leaves a very distinct character:
View attachment 127992

Wow, that is some bass! While I don't mind it having a lot of sub-bass, what is after that is clearly way too much. There is also a hole between 2 and 4 kHz.

The owner also sent me a set of BRAINWAVZ Micro Suede Ear Pads. I had much more difficulty getting the two channels to match but after the fact I discovered that one pad wasn't mounted tight:

View attachment 127994

Assuming these are not run to run variations, the two issues identified with stock pads are much less severe now.

Back to original pads, here is the relative frequency response:

View attachment 127995

There is distortion in bass but considering that we will be taking that down in EQ, the 99 Noir may have very good response there:
View attachment 127996

I wish we didn't have the disturbance around 3 to 6 kHz though which also exceeds my target in absolute terms:
View attachment 127997

Group delay shows some naughtiness in bass:

View attachment 127998

Impedance is flat and low:

View attachment 127999

I was surprised that the spec is 32 ohm. I am too lazy to remeasure so I wonder if someone knows if there has been changes in the driver.

This is one sensitive headphone requiring IEM-like power to play:

View attachment 128000

Massdrop x Meze 99 Noir Headphone Listening Tests
I always start with my female audio tracks and the first track there, does not have much bass. What little it had got warmer so I didn't mind that. The highs on the other hand sounded a bit "tizzy" (yes, this is a technical term!). I then jumped a couple of tracks to one that had bass and boy, there definitely was way too much of it. So out came the parametric EQ tool:

View attachment 128002

Yes there are a lot of filters there. Transformation was dramatic though. Not only was the bass far more balanced now, overall spatial qualities improved hugely. Gone were the recessed vocals and you now had a open, and very pleasant soundstage. I left the deep bass uncompensated and that brought delight to my ears as I listened to my tracks with such content in there! :) I don't think there is too much sub-bass in my book. :D

Once there, I sat there enjoying track after track in my library. As a matter of fact I am listening to them as I type this.

Conclusions
There is no question that out of the box the Meze 99 Noir is hugely flawed headphone, both objectively and subjectively. It is not annoying though as long as the bass does not distort for you. Add half a dozen filters by eye as I did and what you get is very enjoyable, hi-fi experience. It is like taking a F student and bringing him up to B+. Combine that with the light weight and overall comfort, and you have a something that can be a very good headphone.

I cannot recommend the Massdrop x Meze 99 Noir without EQ. With EQ, I am happy to do so. If yo have this headphone and are not using EQ to fix its flaws, you are missing out big time. Assuming my measurements are correct, and you don't want to use EQ, at least get the replacement pads and see if it fixes things a bit.

-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Hi,

Here are some thoughts about the EQ.

Notes about the EQ design:
  • The average L/R is used to calculate the score.
  • The resolution is 12 points per octave interpolated from the raw data (provided by @amirm)
  • A Genetic Algorithm is used to optimize the EQ.
  • The EQ Score is designed to MAXIMIZE the Score WHILE fitting the Harman target curve with a fixed complexity.
    This will avoid weird results if one only optimizes for the Score.
    It will probably flatten the Error regression doing so, the tonal balance should be more neutral.
  • The EQs are starting point and may require tuning (certainly at LF).
  • The range above 10kHz is usually not EQed unless smooth enough to do so.
  • I am using PEQ (PK) as from my experience the definition is more consistent across different DSP/platform implementations than shelves.
  • With some HP/amp combo the boosts and preamp gain need to be carefully considered to avoid issues
Good L/R match.
Way too biased towards bass which explains the negative score

I have generated one EQ, the APO config file is attached.
The scores between brackets correspond to the score with the target being altered for +6dB at LF which is still within the "taste range" from Olive but at the limit.

Score no EQ: -5.6 (15.2)
Score Armirm: 51.4 (74.2)
Score with EQ: 83.1 (79.3)

Code:
Massdrop 99 Noir APO EQ Score Flat@HF 96000Hz
May062021-094708

Preamp: -6 dB

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 47.2 Hz Gain -7.25 dB Q 0.31
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 207.5 Hz Gain -10.1 dB Q 0.96
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 414.5 Hz Gain 5 dB Q 2.16
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 1100 Hz Gain 1.52 dB Q 1.06
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2512 Hz Gain 3.87 dB Q 2.25
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 3485 Hz Gain 5 dB Q 4
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 8630 Hz Gain -6 dB Q 3.87
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 11800 Hz Gain -2 dB Q 4

Massdrop 99 Noir Dashboard.png
 

Attachments

  • Massdrop 99 Noir APO EQ Score Flat@HF 96000Hz.txt
    444 bytes · Views: 132
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WickedInsignia

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I would be most interested in seeing some measurements/listening impressions of the "small" pads. @amirm These should have come with the Noir you have measured, unless the donor didn't include them. In that case, it may be worth obtaining a pair from Meze or someone else to measure them and see if it resolves some of the major FR issues.

There's not a lot of info on how close these sound to the "true original" pads but from what I've read it seems that they aren't the same.
 
Last edited:

KxDx

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I've had these for a year or so. The shallow pads are not comfortable on my huge head, so I always use the large pads.

I don't listen to a lot of music on them though. It's mostly podcasts for me while taking walks. So I sometimes have them on for almost 2 hours at a time. Comfort and isolation are a huge plus.

My other cans are Audio Technica ATH-M50x. Those are impossible for me to wear with the stock pads. I bought some aftermarket ones and it made a world of difference.
 

KxDx

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What no one is talking about is the bass quality. These are absolutely terrible. Muddy. Loose. I was actually pissed about buying these as everyone raved about them on Drop. They left my collection in days back to Drop.
MassDrop is about as useful for recommendations as audioreview. :D
 

Sean Olive

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A timeline of the ear pad debacle with the 99 Classics/Neo/Noir, which explains their odd "tuning":
  • Tyll at Innerfidelity measured the original 99 Classics with the 1st gen pads and found them to be very pleasing, without over-the-top bass and a great FR. This is where their positive status originated. The Classics were indeed a great headphone in the beginning.
  • Many comfort complaints were made about the original pads on a variety of forums and in reviews.
  • Meze developed a 2nd-gen pad that was wider and deeper to improve comfort. This fundamentally changed the sound and resulted in overblown bass, among other deficiencies.
  • No retuning or redesigning of the internals was pursued to fit these new pads (as far as I know from various sources online).
  • Tyll remeasured/relistened with these pads and found the sound to be exponentially worse. They were removed from the wall of fame and no longer recommended by him. He would "rather listen to the M50x".
  • A 3rd gen pad (current) was developed that is shallower but wider than the 2nd gen. The overblown bass was not resolved. I had a pair with these pads and returned them due to severe comfort issues and of course the sound.
  • The 99 Neo was released. These have the 3rd gen pad and a black material cover over the driver grill that wasn't present on the original 99 Classics.
  • Tyll measured the Neo and found it to be just as deficient in the bass, while also sounding slightly more artificial than the 99C.
  • Around the same time (?) the Drop 99 Noir is released. This ships with two pads: the 3rd gen pads and a new "small" pad. This small pad is designed to replicate the 1st gen pads that shipped with the original 99 Classics.
  • Meze also now sells these "small" pads in their online store for the 99 Classics and Neo. In both this case and the Noir they are manufactured by a different company than the original pads, to a similar spec.
  • At some point after the Neo, the 99 classics gain a fabric cover over the driver grill as well. This does not meaningfully change the sound to my knowledge.
  • From what I can gather, the small pads do not replicate the original sound signature as per user experience and measurements (I can't quite remember which, might have been Crinacle or someone else).
  • Thus, the original sound is lost. Unfortunately if someone was lucky enough to find the original pads, they would most likely experience discomfort issues.
I read through all 400+ pages of the Meze 99C thread on Head Fi around the time I owned my own pair, along with perusing a lot of the measurements and reviews available online. This is the conclusion I could deduce from user experience, reviews and posts from Meze themselves.
Thanks for that history. I wasn't aware of all these changes made to the headphone.

It does explain where we got the impression that this was a good headphone when we purchased it to test. I used to ask Tyll for recommendations on which headphones i should purchase for testing he probably recommended this (1st generation pads) when it was still on the wall of fame before being demoted to the wall of shame :)
 
D

Deleted member 31750

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I have many headphones in my collection and the 99 classic is one of them. It’s not a seriously detailed headphone but is enjoyable when i just want to relax and listen some music. Is well made, light and comfortable. One more think I like is that due to the warm sound signature it’s a great or non fatiguing with podcasts and calls.
 

welsh

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I can't stand over emphasized bass. Give me a crashing cymbal any day. I tried some of the EQ settings as listed here on other phones and I thought it totally ruined the sound. Those are quite possible the ugliest headphones ever.
Not quite. That dubious honour surely belongs to the Abyss ‘Cyberman Edition’.
 

Brianc

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I'm guessing a review of my beloved Nightowls would be similar.
 
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