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Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

GDK

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Any Frequency Response Graphs for these not really sub subs?
Here are Genelec’s:
A9CFDB67-4AB1-4F7E-A0AE-C99E76D287A7.png
 

echopraxia

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What do you consider a traditional sub? Any Frequency Response Graphs for these not really sub subs?

Please explain what you mean by the Genelec W371A don’t go as deep as Genelec’s own Subs?

You say that the W371A are not really subs nor do they even try to compare with them. But they list them as Subs right? Just trying to understand what your saying here, not being a smart ass.
To start, just go look at the specs and info on Genelec’s website: https://www.genelec.com/w371a

The W371A is not marketed as a subwoofer; they call it a “woofer system” that achieves (cardioid) directional bass via two opposed bass drivers (one facing forward on the top, and one backward on the bottom of the rear). These two (sub?)woofers do not play the same signal, but the back woofer will be playing a DSP processed derivative which when combining in the room with the pressure waves from the front woofer, forms a directional beam of bass pointing forward. That controlled directivity is what is special about this — because this is in contrast to the omnidirectional sound that most “traditional” subwoofers have, which also has the notorious problems with interacting with room modes, making it nearly impossible to achieve perfect bass for more than one or two carefully tuned precise listening positions.

The Genelec W371A claims to solve the notorious room interaction issues that subs have, achieving a far more consistent sound throughout the room which I also expect may have a far more preferable subjective quality as well due to the narrower directivity causing the pressure waves to be more frontal and consistently distributed across the listeners body when feeling the tactile sensation of bass.
 
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Sancus

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I was actually quite surprised that even when both are GLM calibrated to the listening position and integrated with the same GLM sub, the 8351B’s are significantly better to my ear. Granted, they both do sound very very similar in tonality. But the 8351B midrange was noticeably more clear and clean, especially if I pushed them to high levels with comped energetic music. The treble is smoother on the 8351B, though of course both are great.

That's pretty interesting, perhaps the IMD issue with 2-ways is significant enough to be audible then. Though the 8350A should have quite a bit more headroom to deal with that issue considering its 8" woofer vs a 5" in the 8330A.

You say that the W371A are not really subs nor do they even try to compare with them. But they list them as Subs right? Just trying to understand what your saying here, not being a smart ass.

The W371A are basically a high-powered midbass module, they go up to 500hz, and add the cardioid bass capability of the D&D 8C as well, making the whole set constant directivity down to 60hz. So you end up with a floorstander that has the perfect horizontal & vertical dispersion of the Ones combined with high SPL capability and cardioid bass. It also has some other modes that let it operate sort of as a toolkit to deal with room issues in its frequency range, see the manual for more info on that.

The listed FR is 23hz(-6dB). It's probably more than enough for music, but it isn't going to give you much below 20Hz, as it definitely uses some up some headroom to provide the cardioid bass capability. Genelec's own 7380A goes to 16hz(-6dB) and plays much louder at 20-30hz, as an example. Frankly, I expect any decent 15" sub would outplay the W371A in the lowest frequencies.

P.S. I see some people using the 8361A with the W371A but I think this is a bit silly, since the main difference between the two is the woofer, and the W371A fully replaces the woofer in the Ones. I believe this is why people with unlimited budget eg Morten Lindberg's studio went with the 8351B+ W371A.

ziMsPmj.png
 
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Pearljam5000

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Good evening everyone

After many listenings for 2 years, B&W, Paradigm, Tad, Revel, Focal ... my quest for the musical Grail is finally over.
I had the great pleasure of being able to attend yesterday the first calibration in France of an 8361A + W371A set at the Chopin Center with David and Gilles from Audio-Technica the importer.
View attachment 128573
What can I tell you.
The magic of listening to different modern and classical music: HANS ZIMMER, YOU SUN NAH, MAXWELL, HERBIE HANCOCK, BACH ...
Shivers ... just think about it
A musical emotion that none of us had ever encountered ...

Only one conclusion .... Genelec for life ... looking forward to receiving the 8351B + W971A duo which is optimized for this configuration.


Once again, thank you to Amir and to all the members of ASR who accompanied me in my process.
Did you compare the 8361A to the Focal trios that are in the photo by any chance?
 

paulraphael

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Does anyone use this system with additional Genelec subs for the sub-bass?
 

richard12511

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The subwoofer pricing is really stupid. Amazing subs available for far less than half or even 1/4th the price of the 371A, using the best quality drivers made. I think there is nothing wrong with paying a premium for exceptional quality such as with the speakers, but the subs are WAY out of line. I can't see the justification.

As an example, one of the best measuring raw drivers ever tested on Data-Bass can be bought for around $700: Better than Genelec. Fantastic/SOTA amps are available at reasonable prices, and a rectangular box doesn't cost much either. $9,000???

I used to feel this way, but have since changed my mind. IMO, the W371 are not subwoofers at all, but rather an upgrade to turn the ones into a tower speaker that matches the beam width of the monitor and extends that beam width down to 50hz. They also come with *6 modes for smoothing out the bass in the 50-500hz region based on room dimensions and acoustics.

Judged as subwoofers, they’re quite terrible for the price(-6db at 23Hz), and IMO, one still needs external subs For truly sota full range sound. I could see using these to improve the directivity and frequency response in the 80-500Hz region, then crossing to multiple real subs below that. They can’t do what a good(and cheaper) subwoofer can do down low, but the same is true in reverse. I’m aware of no subwoofer that can maintain a near perfect beamwidth from 50-500Hz. Most don’t play that high, and most are just Omni in the range they do play.

All that said, I do wish they were cheaper. Maybe ones + towers at twice the price?(instead of 3.5 x the price). They’re priced competitively with the Kii 3 BXT, so it does make sense I suppose.
 

Sancus

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Does anyone use this system with additional Genelec subs for the sub-bass?

The Morten Lindberg studio setup mentioned above uses a 7380A for the LFE channel, yes. And yes, I think it WOULD be necessary for reference level playback of (some) multi-channel music or home theatre content.

For stereo, less so, but there may still be some benefit on some tracks. It would depend on what your post-GLM frequency response looks like and the size of your room. Room effects probably make the W371A flat to 20hz after correction for most, it's just a question of how loud they actually play there.
 

pierre

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The Morten Lindberg studio setup mentioned above uses a 7380A for the LFE channel, yes. And yes, I think it WOULD be necessary for reference level playback of (some) multi-channel music or home theatre content.

For stereo, less so, but there may still be some benefit on some tracks. It would depend on what your post-GLM frequency response looks like and the size of your room. Room effects probably make the W371A flat to 20hz after correction for most, it's just a question of how loud they actually play there.

yes you also need large subs if you want high SPL below 30Hz. thats useful with electro music not really with anything else. Classical sometimes goes deeper than 30Hz but not often. I have a 7370 that cannot keep up for the LFE channel.
I would need at least one and possibly multiple subs.

you would need 3 subwoofers to replace 1 w371. two from a PA system tuned high to create the cardioid effect and one to cover the low range. I wanted to test that but got lazy.
 

Frank Dernie

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The subwoofer pricing is really stupid. Amazing subs available for far less than half or even 1/4th the price of the 371A, using the best quality drivers made. I think there is nothing wrong with paying a premium for exceptional quality such as with the speakers, but the subs are WAY out of line. I can't see the justification.

As an example, one of the best measuring raw drivers ever tested on Data-Bass can be bought for around $700: Better than Genelec. Fantastic/SOTA amps are available at reasonable prices, and a rectangular box doesn't cost much either. $9,000???
Like with all fairly innovative designs which arew unique you pay for the R&D and technology.

Buying a top quality driver and amp is the easiest part, anybody could do it even if they had only internet level of knowledge and understanding.
Understanding how the 2 bass sources can be used either to make a cardioid response or to compensate room modes if appropriately mounted, and the development of hardware and software to make it work will have hundreds, probably thousands of extremely skilled engineering man hours in it.
The price doesn't surprise me (more disappointment) at all.
It is actually the unique capability of the W371 that makes me consider buying Genelec.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

Often lost in the discussions about Return On Investment is the real cost of a solution.

As in most things in life it is a matter of balance.

At first blush the W371A could be deemed expensive, no adverb required, but let's indulge a bit: "terribly" expensive :). It is indeed possible to obtain similarly good response down to single digit Hertz, with less dear subwoofers. A few things that one should keep in mind.
1) It takes skills and knowledge; more so than most enthusiast fathom. Just like driving a car is trivial, racing a car in even regional races require skills far beyond what 99.9% of the world drivers population possess or is capable of possessing.
2) It takes time. You don't sweep. measure, apply the EQ coefficient and be happy. It doesn't work that way. No way.. it works like this: You sweep measure, measure for weeks, apply various coefficients, listen, measure again, tweak coefficient by ears, measure, like, then un-like, then measure again. ...
3)Capabilities are not the same: The darn thing is cardioid down to 50 Hz providing Constant Directivity down to 50 Hz. That is unprecedented and it seems it can go as loud as 120 dB at 1 meter in its passband... anechoic...
4) it is not necessarily cheap. One can indeed find subwoofers that can go do 120 dB at 1 meter down low. I am not sure these go to 500 Hz flat... Nor can you shape their beam... to match that of the mains.

I made that mistake to think of these as "subwoofers": They are not. They are a set of adjunct that transform the Speakers known as Genelec the Ones, into a full range columns speaker with unique capabilities and performance. With the W371A you have the Coaxial, the Ones speakers being virtually relieved of playing anything under 500 Hz!!! while having constant directivity from 50 Hz to 20 Khz... The closest to these on the market are the Kii3 + BXT ($34,000) and perhaps the Bang Olufsen Beolab 90... (around $80,000)

All in all , it is best to see the (W371A + The Ones (8300xx)) as an uber-Speaker System representing the best Genelec offers at this point in time... And that is saying a lot.

Dreaming about such a system but more likely to go toward JBL 708 + Multisubs ... in the here and now.

Peace

P.S.

While Genelec would be too happy to sell the 8361A with the W371A, I would think the same (better?) performance is attainable with the 8351. Shaves $2000 from the final bill.
On paper I can't see the advantages once the speakers are relieved from 500 Hz down.
 
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MarsianC#

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I see some people using the 8361A with the W371A but I think this is a bit silly, since the main difference between the two is the woofer, and the W371A fully replaces the woofer in the Ones.
Exactly! Makes no sense at all.
I (and some othe crazy people) am trying to DIY a W371A, similar size, but not as tall. Using a pair of Event Opal btw. Problems around 170 Hz come from the first port resonance...
Data is generated in a Comsol simulation and imported into VituixCAD. 14" CB plus 12" in BR, so same size, but very different TSP. No FIR filters used, only some All-passes plus (constant) delay.
ra1_cd.png

MaxSPL should be around 105 dB @25 Hz in halfspace.
 
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Absolute

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What's the polar response with 8351 + W371A? In my mind it makes no sense to have constant directivity from 100-500 only for the system to go near omni up to 1000 hz before regaining some directivity control.

I can't understand the hype.
 

MarsianC#

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What's the polar response with 8351 + W371A?
See S&R measurments for 8361A, no way near omni above 500 Hz. Same with 8351A (I expect 8351B to be the same, but with more maxSPL).
Vertical or placed on their side they got CD from 200 Hz and up, 8351 above 300 Hz. So perfect CD with W371A from Bass to Top even with lower xover! Ceiling should be treated, not too sure about the floor.
 
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Bear123

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Thank you for all the thoughtful comments and discussion on the W371A. I have a better understanding that this is not an *ordinary* subwoofer. The driver I posted indeed has a flat response out to *beyond* 500 Hz, so actually has a more extended top end than the Genelec, which of course allows the response to be shaped as desired, it extends lower, produces higher SPL and lower distortion but does not achieve the constant directivity down to 50 Hz as the Genelec does, which appears to be the key technology/benefit of its design.

I wonder how much of a difference there would be in a blind listening test between a pair of BMS18n862 crossed at whatever optimal frequency vs the W371 when paired with the Gelenecs. Would it sound $15,00 better? Maybe it would, I dunno. Regardless, I don't begrudge the design or those who would buy it; I can certainly appreciate the engineering and design work that goes into it.

In a domestic setting where aesthetics might matter, and assuming my budget were open to the Genelec combo price point, something like this would make an awfully tough alternative option to rule out:
Funk Audio 18.0
18-0_orig.jpg

As someone who have lived with and is accustomed to extremely high quality, high fidelity +/- 1-2dB full range bass using multiple, very high quality subwoofers, I would be interested to hear such a setup and how it compares.
 

Absolute

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See S&R measurments for 8361A, no way near omni above 500 Hz. Same with 8351A (I expect 8351B to be the same, but with more maxSPL).
Vertical or placed on their side they got CD from 200 Hz and up, 8351 above 300 Hz. So perfect CD with W371A from Bass to Top even with lower xover! Ceiling should be treated, not too sure about the floor.
Yeah, well... I don't trust those plots below 1000 hz. It shows my M2's to be constant directivity down to around 200 hz, which is far off the mark according to spinorama measurements.
No way you're getting directivity Control down to 500 hz with such a small speaker.
 

echopraxia

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I actually think this is an area ripe for some small independent person or business to come in and produce a massively more affordable product than competes very strongly or even is superior to the Genelec W371A in some ways.

As @Bear123 points out, you can buy drivers that are perhaps superior to Genelec’s at a tiny fraction of the cost. It would be really interesting if someone were able to design and sell a cardioid woofer/subwoofer product at a fraction of what Genelec charges.

I suppose the main problem here is that it would have very limited applicability outside of people who have Genelec Ones (or whatever speaker they’re meant to be paired with) since this is very much like designing a new speaker with the Ones being used as the midrange and tweeter.

So yeah I suppose that explains the price of the W371A: they’re really like a new designed tower speaker that happens to have the cardioid woofers (W371A) sold separately from the midrange and tweeter (8351B or 8361).
 
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