Diminishing returns in the higher end

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

It depends on the type of music one likes, the size of room, prefer loudness level, etc.

My setup in my small computer room is pretty satisfying. But it lacks big sound stage illusion due to room limitations. If I move my computer room setup to my much bigger living room, it can provide bigger stage illusion. But, as soon as I play electronica with lots of sub bass loud, the setup simply loss it's magic and struggle with its ability to cleanly "move" me. This is where bigger setup with lower distortion is needed.....Bigger and lower distortions typically means more expensive.....

Same here, but i think my speakers at 1.3 meters sounds like they are at 2.5 or 3 meters ... very nice sounding im happy with my pc speakers XD

 

[audiofooled]

I put on a set of headphones, eq'd to the Harmon curve that is most recent. And I listened to this YouTube video. Quite a difference between the two. And carefully chosen instrumentation to be "kind" to the speakers. There is no way that those speakers in that space could do this music justice. Most of the energy is in the midrange. And when you you power calculations and then surface area and excursion calculations to meet say 105db peaks in music those tiny midranges are never going to cut it. The systems that I have done that have a balanced high efficiency setup use a lot of midrange area. And you can hear it.

For low end I prefer a horn loaded system. Preferably bass for two and half octaves and then midbass. The impact capability is the closest thing I have ever heard to real life. No amount of watts or a few woofers ever equals what a few well designed horns can pull off. Thinking it through what you need to have is a room designed for the sound if you truly want to chase the high end sound. Because you cannot hide the size of enclosure required to do it correctly unless you are making a purpose designed room. I have consulted on and build a few such systems. They are forces of nature. One of them had a efficiency of 105db/watt all the way down to 10 hertz. This was a home theatre room that was also setup for two way sound if desired.

That is an entirely different topic. Because those are one off designs that are not to be had off of the shelf for any amount of money.

Loudspeakers in the video are these:

https://gauderakustik.com/index.php...a-en/berlina-rc-12-en/berlina-rc-11-navi-2-en

They're about 75000 euros, EDIT: hopefully for the pair each? And you still need some expensive monster to drive them. Yes, this is a very large large room but still in a smaller listening room you have all the same 7" midbass, 2" midrange and 3/4" tweeter. And they still have to compete with 4x9" woofers. And then you have room mode issues and put a couple more of let's say 18" subwoofers? It may sound impressive as it is, but never close to lifelike. My point is you cannot have too much bass if it's high quality, but midrange has to be able to follow. You can have flat frequency response, sure, and follow any curve, EQ, DSP, whatever, but quality or lack of midrange and transients in the region can easily be heard. That's where a lot of real music is and imo, "high end" should pay more attention to it for this kind of money. On the other hand, even though lack of midrange "quality" can easily be heard, it is often understood as, "too much bass", on the contrary... But, again, this is the sound that sells.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Here’s one.

Commercial speaker of this driver uses known to me are Adam Audio’s old flagship Tensor sub, Magico Qsub (they may have subsequently started using cheaper drivers) and flagship, Monster-Design in the early 2000s.

When you actually do the math and simulate the Aurasound sub that Magico uses it is not exactly all that impressive. A great example of sizzle without the steak. I have never been able to find measurements of this subwoofer.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Loudspeakers in the video are these:

https://gauderakustik.com/index.php...a-en/berlina-rc-12-en/berlina-rc-11-navi-2-en

They're about 75000 euros, EDIT: hopefully for the pair each? And you still need some expensive monster to drive them. Yes, this is a very large large room but still in a smaller listening room you have all the same 7" midbass, 2" midrange and 3/4" tweeter. And they still have to compete with 4x9" woofers. And then you have room mode issues and put a couple more of let's say 18" subwoofers? It may sound impressive as it is, but never close to lifelike. My point is you cannot have too much bass if it's high quality, but midrange has to be able to follow. You can have flat frequency response, sure, and follow any curve, EQ, DSP, whatever, but quality or lack of midrange and transients in the region can easily be heard. That's where a lot of real music is and imo, "high end" should pay more attention to it for this kind of money. On the other hand, even though lack of midrange "quality" can easily be heard, it is often understood as, "too much bass", on the contrary... But, again, this is the sound that sells.

I have designed speakers that did exactly this. But they are not inexpensive to make. The difference in being able to reproduce the midrange with clean transient response is remarkable. My target was a true capability to reproduce 105db at the listening position of 2.5 metres. That takes a lot of midrange drivers. And I have never found that watts are a replacement for baseline efficiency. If you start with drivers that are very efficient you can get a lot out of them.

A simple analogy. A woofer that is 90db efficient on One watt measured at one metre is less than 2% efficient. So do the math. When you are pumping 100 or 500 watts into them you have heating elements that are making your music. Very quickly you end up with power compression and drift in the crossover as all of the low level signal behaviour of the loudspeakers is not gone. The heated voice coil has changed many of the basic Thiele Small design parameters. The Qes, Qts, and even the Qms are all derivatives of the impedance and spring system of the driver. And that is rarely if ever discussed.

Now to be fair, most of the time you are listening at about an average of 2 to 5 watts with much higher transients. But the heating effect is till there. It just takes longer to get there!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Same here, but i think my speakers at 1.3 meters sounds like they are at 2.5 or 3 meters ... very nice sounding im happy with my pc speakers XD

Good for you. About soundstage size, my small computer room can't match my living room. For example, my living room could give the illusion of a stage wider than 23+ ft (the length of my living room front wall for speakers).

 

[LTig]

A simple analogy. A woofer that is 90db efficient on One watt measured at one metre is less than 2% efficient. So do the math. When you are pumping 100 or 500 watts into them you have heating elements that are making your music. Very quickly you end up with power compression and drift in the crossover as all of the low level signal behaviour of the loudspeakers is not gone. The heated voice coil has changed many of the basic Thiele Small design parameters. The Qes, Qts, and even the Qms are all derivatives of the impedance and spring system of the driver. And that is rarely if ever discussed.

One more reason to go active. No effect of voice coil heating on the xover.

 

[audiofooled]

I have designed speakers that did exactly this. But they are not inexpensive to make. The difference in being able to reproduce the midrange with clean transient response is remarkable. My target was a true capability to reproduce 105db at the listening position of 2.5 metres. That takes a lot of midrange drivers. And I have never found that watts are a replacement for baseline efficiency. If you start with drivers that are very efficient you can get a lot out of them.

A simple analogy. A woofer that is 90db efficient on One watt measured at one metre is less than 2% efficient. So do the math. When you are pumping 100 or 500 watts into them you have heating elements that are making your music. Very quickly you end up with power compression and drift in the crossover as all of the low level signal behaviour of the loudspeakers is not gone. The heated voice coil has changed many of the basic Thiele Small design parameters. The Qes, Qts, and even the Qms are all derivatives of the impedance and spring system of the driver. And that is rarely if ever discussed.

Now to be fair, most of the time you are listening at about an average of 2 to 5 watts with much higher transients. But the heating effect is till there. It just takes longer to get there!

Yup, music instruments can get loud and stay cool, resonances, air turbulence, being their friends and usually having a lot of surface area to radiate sound. Transducers are tiny in comparison and have to move a lot of air very quickly. More drivers to couple with enough air, to share the load and not brake at reference levels. Or more speakers in multichannel setup.

 

[stevenswall]

Hi all, first post here.

I've noticed many of the speakers reviewed on this site are under 5k. I am wondering how many of you believe there are some higher priced speakers (say 10-40k but not more) that offer a noticeable difference, even if barley, in sound quality. Of course some higher priced speakers will underperform but which are those that deliver at least that little bit of extra for the hefty price tag? Many people rave about Wilson, Rockport, Magico, Marten, the list goes on. I know we have a healthy population of skeptics here, which is great as there's plenty of snake oil around but which of the many higher end brands offer a product worth it or can I not go better than revels. Anyone with objective data, subjective opinions, or whatever feel free to contribute. I ask since I will be comparing speakers recommended here with some pricier ones and would like some guidance on which I should add to my list to listen to in that higher priced category. Thank you

In the higher priced category to get better than Revels I'd look for one or more of these things, in addition to the good qualities the Revels have (solid cabinet construction, no sharp edges on the front, waveguides.)
-Coincident/concentric/coaxial drivers for better vertical dispersion.
-Cardioid bass dispersion pattern.
-Active crossovers/amps.
-DSP driver correction.
-Room correction.

Right now the Genelec 8341 seems to be at the top, and it has many of those things going for it. For more bass extension, wider horizontal dispersion, and more spl look at the 8260 which is in my opinion the best monitor Genelec makes, and would likely score somewhere between the 8341 score and 8341 with sub score.

Others to look at:
-Kii Three (Cardioid bass... Controlled bass is one of the wonders of audiophilia most don't experience if they don't have room correction, and controlling or using directional bass should help a lot.)
-Dutch & Dutch 8C

 

[stevenswall]

One more reason to go active. No effect of voice coil heating on the xover.

And you can compensate for the driver behavior changing with either servo feedback, or by knowing the driver behavior beforehand like Devialet does with "SAM" and their amps that have presets for certain speakers that they have measured.

Not sure about the technicalities of it, but it looks like they know how a driver will distort or behave differently with different source material at different volumes by measuring it with a "laser micrometer" and then they can program a DSP to perform a function on the incoming audio that is the inverse so that it balances out.

Not sure if or what other companies do that, or if it's common with high end studio monitors and Devialet just markets it more.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Level matching is best if you want to compare a loudspeakers. We all have phones that are more than capable of taking relative measurements. Absolute values are not important. Matching to a half db is a good idea. Or even better than a half db if you are patient. Having the same room position is also very important. Rooms influence the sound much more than a few points of a db. And even placing side by side can change response. Having loudspeakers in the room that are dead but ported in the right places can even influence the rooms sound. Ever hear of resonant bass traps? That's what an un-powered loudspeaker can become in the right proximity and location in a room.

VERY TRUE!

 

[jhaider]

When you actually do the math and simulate the Aurasound sub that Magico uses it is not exactly all that impressive. A great example of sizzle without the steak. I have never been able to find measurements of this subwoofer.

NS18 drive unit:
https://data-bass.com/#/drivers/5bad25d9de9a7500041b91e2?_k=g4yxl3

NS18 closed box:
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c4f6c449c59750004980762?_k=dcim8z

 

[mwmkravchenko]

NS18 drive unit:
https://data-bass.com/#/drivers/5bad25d9de9a7500041b91e2?_k=g4yxl3

NS18 closed box:
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c4f6c449c59750004980762?_k=dcim8z

I designed the driver that has some of the highest output on that website for a commercial enclosure. I am aware of what it can do. I am also aware that the Aurasound driver can do. 107 db at 20 hertz. And that is in an enclosure that is much larger than the Magico subwoofer. They will be less than that. I have very accurately modeled what i am designing against. Part of being a useful Consultant

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Magico's subwoofer 150 litres internal volume maximum output capability is the red line. Interestingly you get to this at a meager 1500 watts input. And nothing will make it go louder. Other than than letting out the magic smoke. But that is a whole smoke show!

 

[RayDunzl]

Aw, I thought the peak above was at 6Hz.

Then I saw the 10 at the left.

95dB at 10khz seems impressive for a sub, though.

 

[jhaider]

View attachment 128575

Magico's subwoofer 150 litres internal volume maximum output capability is the red line. Interestingly you get to this at a meager 1500 watts input. And nothing will make it go louder. Other than than letting out the magic smoke. But that is a whole smoke show!

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here, unless you’re pointing out that Magico’s top sub is a gigantic, hideous-looking thing with quarter century old drivers that are still SOTA, and capable of needlessly high output when driven by amplification that won’t trip domestic circuit breakers.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here, unless you’re pointing out that Magico’s top sub is a gigantic, hideous-looking thing with quarter century old drivers that are still SOTA, and capable of needlessly high output when driven by amplification that won’t trip domestic circuit breakers.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Aw, I thought the peak above was at 6Hz.

Then I saw the 10 at the left.

95dB at 10khz seems impressive for a sub, though.

See all that math in school was worth something!

 

[richard12511]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here, unless you’re pointing out that Magico’s top sub is a gigantic, hideous-looking thing with quarter century old drivers that are still SOTA, and capable of needlessly high output when driven by amplification that won’t trip domestic circuit breakers.

Seems fairly good, except for the price. For $36,000, 9 JTR Captivator 4000ULFs would demolish that sub in every possible way .

 

[jhaider]

Seems fairly good, except for the price. For $36,000, 9 JTR Captivator 4000ULFs would demolish that sub in every possible way .

I didn’t know (and don’t care) how much the Magico costs - it looks like something a bomb squad might use to safely detonate explosives, not something for a human living room. I only mentioned it as one of several examples of commercial products using a specific brand of drive unit.

However, your assertion is clearly and obviously wrong. Nine non-functional refrigerators in a room would be even uglier than the Magico sub. Also I expect that if one dropped the wood JTRs on the thick aluminum Magico from some height, the metal subs may be dented but the wood subs would be demolished.

 

[richard12511]

I didn’t know (and don’t care) how much the Magico costs - it looks like something a bomb squad might use to safely detonate explosives, not something for a human living room. I only mentioned it as one of several examples of commercial products using a specific brand of drive unit.

However, your assertion is clearly and obviously wrong. Nine non-functional refrigerators in a room would be even uglier than the Magico sub. Also I expect that if one dropped the wood JTRs on the thick aluminum Magico from some height, the metal subs may be dented but the wood subs would be demolished.

If size/performance is the main goal, then yes. I was thinking only in terms of price/performance.

I was thinking @mwmkravchenko was criticizing it based on price, which is where my comment came from. After rereading his post, he does mention size.