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Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

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Hotwetrat

Hotwetrat

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The decay of a note can be described as a magnitude envelope (decrease of level with time), and not one of frequency - so with a decaying note what changes is its loudness from beginning to end, but the fundamental frequency is relatively unchanged (until the note volume becomes so low in volume that it disappears). So if a speakers plays 40Hz with reasonable volume, you will have no issue hearing the entire decay of a low E on bass.

But some music still has content under 40Hz, so it can be pretty satisfying to be able to reproduce that :)

EDIT: I say the frequency is 'relatively unchanged' as string instruments such as bass guitar typically don't have all that stable pitch throughout the note duration - but this variation is relatively small and insignificant for this example.

I play piano and guitar - or did for many years. I tune by ear, I can confirm this. The reason to re 'pluck' a string for tuning was volume decay, not frequency change - sorry if my terminology is off but hopefully my point gets accross.
 

Colonel7

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Personally, I'd still like to see the objective performance of REL subs.

However, I also agree with @ta240 that REL customers likely don't care about objective performance. Kinda similar to Zu speakers. I'd love to see a Zu on the NFS, but I doubt Zu owners care.

Where I disagree with @ta240 is that just because REL owners aren't interested in objective performance, that it's a waste to measure them. I think there are plenty of us non-owners out there who would be interested in seeing their objective performance.
Not sure if mentioned in this thread, but REL declined to send Brent Butterworth at Wirecutter any units for testing -(~$400-$800 competitors). He measures them and does blind testing usually with 2 or 3 people. Below is from the article (full article here)

REL HT/1205: We had hoped to get a sample of the HT/1205, one of REL’s new line of home theater subwoofers, but the company declined, saying that it always has someone set up subwoofers in the reviewer’s home and that it couldn’t spare anyone to make the trip to Los Angeles.
REL T/5i: Ditto for this audiophile-oriented subwoofer, which has an unusual input panel that allows mixing of speaker-level and line-level signals.
 

richard12511

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I think you are simplifying a bit when equating all REL owners. Why wouldn't most of them care about objective performance? I would. There are lot of people here that use to own REL and now they don't. There are people here that were cable worshipers and now they care about objective performance and audibility.
The very fact that an audiophile even invested in a subwoofer says something.

Maybe could have worded it better. What about "don't care enough about objective performance to prioritize it over other aspects they value more(ex: aesthetics and small size)"?
 

onion

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Rooms have sound content below 40Hz. For instruments/ voices recorded in rooms/ halls, microphones will pick up these sounds. Systems capable of playing those sounds make the music sound more realistic. Another example. is piano acoustics.
I have Genelec 8341s with subs. GLM allows easy switching between a 2.0 and 2.3 setup that is level-matched. 'With subs' always sounds more 'realistic'.
 

richard12511

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Rooms have sound content below 40Hz. For instruments/ voices recorded in rooms/ halls, microphones will pick up these sounds. Systems capable of playing those sounds make the music sound more realistic. Another example. is piano acoustics.
I have Genelec 8341s with subs. GLM allows easy switching between a 2.0 and 2.3 setup that is level-matched. 'With subs' always sounds more 'realistic'.

I've done the same sorts of tests, and I agree. The 20-40Hz region really does add a positive quality to quite a bit of music imo, and having subs that can generate it at appropriate levels with low distortion makes a considerable difference in the overall sound quality.
 

Pdxwayne

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I've done the same sorts of tests, and I agree. The 20-40Hz region really does add a positive quality to quite a bit of music imo, and having subs that can generate it at appropriate levels with low distortion makes a considerable difference in the overall sound quality.
Yup....Agree. In my case, sealed subs with 20hz capability...
 

Everett T

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So to sum it up, REL subs are not worth the money and disagreement doesn't correlate to the science. I can't understand where their sales come from. Even way back my subs had more performance for the dollar.
 

daverosenthal

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REL is never going to be a performance/$ king but I still wonder about how well their offerings perform. Something like a SVS SB16 Ultra is a $2k USD sub. For $3K you get a REL s/812 which is a 12" driver with 12" passive radiator. In terms of pure cone area that exceeds the 16" SVS... I've also seen a video with a REL representative talking about their driver's 2-inch (one-way) excursion. Again, if true, that's more than the SVS.

So, yeah, I bet it still doesn't measure up at the end of the day, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that something like that s/812 puts in a respectable performance. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any measurements exist.
 

Everett T

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REL is never going to be a performance/$ king but I still wonder about how well their offerings perform. Something like a SVS SB16 Ultra is a $2k USD sub. For $3K you get a REL s/812 which is a 12" driver with 12" passive radiator. In terms of pure cone area that exceeds the 16" SVS... I've also seen a video with a REL representative talking about their driver's 2-inch (one-way) excursion. Again, if true, that's more than the SVS.

So, yeah, I bet it still doesn't measure up at the end of the day, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that something like that s/812 puts in a respectable performance. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any measurements exist.
A better comparison would be the PB4000, and the SVS would still win out over the REL. The PR dosen't count as cone area FWIW.

Edit: the 4000 also boasts 2" one way excursion
 
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daverosenthal

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Yeah, you may be right; it's always hard to know what exactly to compare. Is a passive radiator closer to a sealed or ported design? Probably depends on the PR. Also, in terms of 'what counts' for cone area, FWIW REL compares the 12"+12"PR to a 14" design in their literature. It's totally possible to get those cones moving in a sympathetic way to emulate more air movement capacity than the 12" driver by itself so to say the PR 'doesn't count' (towards air moving capacity) at all seems wrong.

In any case, my point was that SVS and others, I'm sure, out-measure the REL for less $, but I bet that the REL isn't the total crap that everyone on the internet says it is, it's probably just more money than it should be.
 

Everett T

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Yeah, you may be right; it's always hard to know what exactly to compare. Is a passive radiator closer to a sealed or ported design? Probably depends on the PR. Also, in terms of 'what counts' for cone area, FWIW REL compares the 12"+12"PR to a 14" design in their literature. It's totally possible to get those cones moving in a sympathetic way to emulate more air movement capacity than the 12" driver by itself so to say the PR 'doesn't count' (towards air moving capacity) at all seems wrong.

In any case, my point was that SVS and others, I'm sure, out-measure the REL for less $, but I bet that the REL isn't the total crap that everyone on the internet says it is, it's probably just more money than it should be.
As mentioned, a PR speaker should be considered the same as a ported speaker. That's why I mentioned the PB4000. As for REL being crap, it's not worth the money dollar to dollar. Regardless of what their owners claim, it's not a wise investment in audio. Performing well and doing so way below competitive subs is fruitless. I'm not looking to annoy people that own them, it's just a fact.
 

polmuaddib

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For pro audio it is important to be economical and get the max performance for your money.
But for hobbyists, audio enthusiasths, it is not that important.
 

Pdxwayne

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I am surprised this thread has been so long ...
I would have thought , there was nothing to debate.
Myth. No Science.
SVS >Rel ... And this , across the board.
You seems to forget about the weight of the subs.

I have owned 8", 10" and 12" subs that are light weight (less than 40 lbs) and those shake/vibrate a lot when go loud. Clarity was lacking. If you check the weight of many of SVS subs, you will again see many light weight subs. Rel offers solidly build subs that weigh more, thus offer potentially much better clarity when go loud.
 
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polmuaddib

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Is SVS the only other choice? Can't there be other subs performing the same for even less money?
If I wanted XLR connection, there is only SVS 4000 which is 2000 euros and more.
What about pro audio subs like Adam, Dynaudio, Kali, JBL or other?
I looked at the Subwoofer page here on ASR and there are very few subwoofer measurements available.
There is also only one REL measured which is an entry level T7i.
 

Everett T

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Is SVS the only other choice? Can't there be other subs performing the same for even less money?
If I wanted XLR connection, there is only SVS 4000 which is 2000 euros and more.
What about pro audio subs like Adam, Dynaudio, Kali, JBL or other?
I looked at the Subwoofer page here on ASR and there are very few subwoofer measurements available.
There is also only one REL measured which is an entry level T7i.
Arendal or XTZ, If you're in Europe?
 

polmuaddib

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In europe, yes. I haven't heard of those. Thanks. Will look into them and their availabilty.
I am in Europe, but not part of European Union, so customs, taxes and shipping is a bitch.
 
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