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Tube gear opinions

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Helicopter

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Not to derail, but I have been eyeing the Boyuu Reisong amps, including A10, MT88, A50mkIII and A60, as well as the Yulu M2. I am probably gonna hold out until I find some speakers I like with my Shuguang SG-845-7 SET amp though.

It is amazing how what you see influences what you hear, dramatically, universally, and usually without our knowledge. Check out the McGurk effect video demonstrations if you have not. They put in perspecrive just how powerful the eyes and mind are in changing what we hear, i.e. auditory perception
 

JeffS7444

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Pete Millett designed his "Jonokuchi" amplifier to sound tube-y, and he provides measurements which show what that looks like in terms of frequency response and harmonics. I wouldn't mind building one myself.
 

dtaylo1066

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I have both tube, transisitor-based solid state gear, as well as PWM in the form of a number of Hypex amps. The Hypex, as demonstrated on this site, measure the best of the bunch with minimal amounts of distortion and significant amounts of power. I am aware that the EL34 amp has far more distortion and far less power than my Harmon Kardon or Hypex amps.

After years of listening, my brain and ears tell me that I enjoy listening to my tube amp more than the other two, when using the same speakers and digital source. I am willing to admit that my preference may well be due to the form or nature of the distortion, or the differnece in harmonics. But I like it none the less, and I am fine with that. I listen to music for enjoyment first of all, and not necessarily for a component's measurements, though I want a competently designed and produced product as well. And I like all my systems, but not to the same degree.

At his 80th birthday party in NYC, which I had the fortune of being part of, I asked the late Les Paul what type of guitar amp her preferred. He was emphatic about his use of tube amps. I have no idea what his hearing was like at that age. But people like what they like for manifold reasons.

I have heard a mega system with Boulder amp and preamp (impeccable in every way) driving $50,000 Focal speakers that gve me listener fatigue within minutes. I am pretty certain it measured well. Maybe the room was bad, or the CD. But I would have been happier I think with some inexpensive gear positively reviewed on this site and priced for mere mortals.

Nelson Pass devised a small circuit he dubbed the H2 Harmonic generator, with which one could adjust phase and harmonics. Of it he said: "Well, it's a subtle thing. I don't suppose everyone can hear it, and fewer particularly care, but from listening tests we learn that there is a tendency to interpret negative phase 2nd as giving a deeper soundstage and improved localization than otherwise. Positive phase seems to put the instruments and vocals closer and a little more in-your-face with enhanced detail.

"Your results may vary, but when I first explored this with the SIT-1 amplifier at First Watt, I had a knob on the front of the amplifier which varied the amount and phase of the 2nd harmonic. It was easy enough to lend the amplifiers to listeners who didn't know what the knob did and gather their comments. Roughly speaking, they tended to prefer about 1% negative phase 2nd harmonic, so it became my standard setting for that knob.

"Of course we understand that all this is an illusion, like most of the rest of audio perception - you are welcome to take my remarks as entertainment."

In the end it is just entertainment and illusion. Can one illusion sound better to a specific set of ears if it has more distortion or 2nd harmonic? I am thinking that is so. And some people want to watch their TV's on color and contrast settings that are not true to the original.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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It is amazing how what you see influences what you hear, dramatically, universally, and usually without our knowledge.

I'm influenced every time I look at this in my darkened room (with full knowledge of course :)).

Tubes.jpg
 

ahofer

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At his 80th birthday party in NYC, which I had the fortune of being part of, I asked the late Les Paul what type of guitar amp her preferred. He was emphatic about his use of tube amps. I have no idea what his hearing was like at that age. But people like what they like for manifold reasons.

Guitar amplification is a completely different purpose, where the exaggerated effects of overdriven tubes are not only part of the sound, but part of the instrument (they can be activated by your plectrum/fingers in wonderful ways). For traditional Jazz players, it is mostly a way to thicken the anemic sound from the pickups. It became even more important in the move from archtops (L5 etc.) to solidbodies like...the Les Paul. I still preferred the arch top/floating neck pickup sound for that purpose, myself, but the feedback with a big band was a bitch.

Nelson Pass devised a small circuit he dubbed the H2 Harmonic generator, with which one could adjust phase and harmonics. Of it he said: "Well, it's a subtle thing. I don't suppose everyone can hear it, and fewer particularly care, but from listening tests we learn that there is a tendency to interpret negative phase 2nd as giving a deeper soundstage and improved localization than otherwise. Positive phase seems to put the instruments and vocals closer and a little more in-your-face with enhanced detail.

Probably could be recreated in DSP. I’d be interested in trying it. Something like this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WazaTAE--boss-waza-tube-amp-expander
 

Helicopter

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I'm influenced every time I look at this in my darkened room (with full knowledge of course :)).

View attachment 127971
Yeah, maybe I should hold out for a Mc, for that push-pull flavor, rather than the Boyuu Reisong MT-88... I would get an Orsefon if they were $900 or whatever.

Honestly, I'd like to try some Hypex NC502MP modules in my system too.

I could blow a year of hobby budget in an evening on like 10 amps. :facepalm:
 

richard12511

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I have both tube, transisitor-based solid state gear, as well as PWM in the form of a number of Hypex amps. The Hypex, as demonstrated on this site, measure the best of the bunch with minimal amounts of distortion and significant amounts of power. I am aware that the EL34 amp has far more distortion and far less power than my Harmon Kardon or Hypex amps.

After years of listening, my brain and ears tell me that I enjoy listening to my tube amp more than the other two, when using the same speakers and digital source. I am willing to admit that my preference may well be due to the form or nature of the distortion, or the differnece in harmonics. But I like it none the less, and I am fine with that. I listen to music for enjoyment first of all, and not necessarily for a component's measurements, though I want a competently designed and produced product as well. And I like all my systems, but not to the same degree.

At his 80th birthday party in NYC, which I had the fortune of being part of, I asked the late Les Paul what type of guitar amp her preferred. He was emphatic about his use of tube amps. I have no idea what his hearing was like at that age. But people like what they like for manifold reasons.

I have heard a mega system with Boulder amp and preamp (impeccable in every way) driving $50,000 Focal speakers that gve me listener fatigue within minutes. I am pretty certain it measured well. Maybe the room was bad, or the CD. But I would have been happier I think with some inexpensive gear positively reviewed on this site and priced for mere mortals.

Nelson Pass devised a small circuit he dubbed the H2 Harmonic generator, with which one could adjust phase and harmonics. Of it he said: "Well, it's a subtle thing. I don't suppose everyone can hear it, and fewer particularly care, but from listening tests we learn that there is a tendency to interpret negative phase 2nd as giving a deeper soundstage and improved localization than otherwise. Positive phase seems to put the instruments and vocals closer and a little more in-your-face with enhanced detail.

"Your results may vary, but when I first explored this with the SIT-1 amplifier at First Watt, I had a knob on the front of the amplifier which varied the amount and phase of the 2nd harmonic. It was easy enough to lend the amplifiers to listeners who didn't know what the knob did and gather their comments. Roughly speaking, they tended to prefer about 1% negative phase 2nd harmonic, so it became my standard setting for that knob.

"Of course we understand that all this is an illusion, like most of the rest of audio perception - you are welcome to take my remarks as entertainment."

In the end it is just entertainment and illusion. Can one illusion sound better to a specific set of ears if it has more distortion or 2nd harmonic? I am thinking that is so. And some people want to watch their TV's on color and contrast settings that are not true to the original.

Well said.
 

SIY

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It's a pity that I had to leave my tube amps in boxes when I moved here. They're fun and I miss playing with them. Soon again, perhaps.

I am under no illusion that there's any such thing as "tube sound," as regards the actual sound. It's a psychological/sociological artifact.
 

Tom C

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"What makes it sound so different than our SS gear, or better yet what is that warm sound that we hear?"

No idea. I like vacuum tube amplification and use it (mostly) when I am listening "seriously". I don't think of it as warm; I do think of it as accurate (in terms of linearity of amplification). Truth be told, I think my incremental enjoyment or appreciation is driven by two things. First is the relative simplicity (and relative ancient-ness) of the "technology" -- in my case single-ended power amplifiers using direct-heated triode power output tubes after one stage of voltage amplification -- relative to the output. I equate the simplicity with elegance. To me, PWM amplifiers, e.g., are the polar opposite of a two stage SET amplifier in terms of simplicity and elegance. EDIT: That's in no way to say that they don't, or can't, sound good!

The other criterion that appeals to me, I think, is what I like to call the cult of the arcane. ;)

N.B. These are just my opinions. :)

DSC_0132 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

EDIT: Apologies for the multitude of edits I've made to this little post! Most of them were typographic! :confused:
Very beautiful.
 

Sal1950

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Elvis and the OP have left the building ???

It's a pity that I had to leave my tube amps in boxes when I moved here
Yep, I had to do the same, can't imagine having those VTL monobloc's making the room temps climb any more than the FL sun already does. Besides the fact that I'm pretty much exclusively multich now. 9 x tube monos ? Oh my. :eek:
 

Jim Matthews

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Can't even imagine wanting to fuss with tubes myself.
After my first week with an AES connected, all digital amplification chain I found myself rowing the same boat.

I don't miss the "fiddle factor" and waste heat.
 

charleski

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I'd bet the vast majority of that "warmth" comes from the fact that your brain knows that other people say that tubes are warm.
I think tube sound 'warmth' comes simply from the fact that people can see they're warm. They've got heaters directly inside the tubes! They glow! Of course they're warm! If makers of class A/B amps clued up and had external heatsinks covered in a pigment that changes colour with temperature they'd get similar sort of reviews of 'warm' sound. It only stands to reason!

/s

You're quite correct that it's perfectly possible to make line-stage tube gear that's very acceptable in terms of distortion and would be virtually impossible to distinguish from a decent SS design. People were making equipment like this throughout the 50s and 60s. Designs from that era are pretty solid and there are still people improving on them, see the book by Morgan Jones or Tube CAD Journal. The problem came with the 'renaissance' of tube gear in the 80s, when a few small-scale 'high-end' designers decided to make products that were deliberately bad in order to differentiate themselves and capture sales from people chasing unicorns.

Personally, I have a cathode-follower headphone amp that I like quite a lot, largely because I've tinkered with it extensively and thus feel invested in it. I very much doubt I'd be able to distinguish it from my Heresy in a blind test, but do find myself often firing it up for a listen.
 

charleski

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dtaylo1066

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Guitar amplification is a completely different purpose, where the exaggerated effects of overdriven tubes are not only part of the sound, but part of the instrument (they can be activated by your plectrum/fingers in wonderful ways). For traditional Jazz players, it is mostly a way to thicken the anemic sound from the pickups. It became even more important in the move from archtops (L5 etc.) to solidbodies like...the Les Paul. I still preferred the arch top/floating neck pickup sound for that purpose, myself, but the feedback with a big band was a bitch.



Probably could be recreated in DSP. I’d be interested in trying it. Something like this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WazaTAE--boss-waza-tube-amp-expander
Yes, you are quite correct about guitar effects and amplification actually relying on distortion to be part of the sound of the instrument. It is a very interesting fact when you think about it.
 

DSJR

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No mention of the very high output impedance of most tube amps equalising the speaker response as they 'track' the roller-coaster impedance curve that most speakers have and which most solid state amps all but ignore? Look at most recent Stereophile reviews of tube amps and ignore the verbal diarrhoea in the pages before the measurements... Even before low frequency transformer saturation is considered and the distortion (many valve/tube amps seem to have third harmonic leading the second), the altered response into a typical speaker is a huge no-no.

Apologies, I've been in this game far too long to be swayed by the looks of tube amps today and the big tubes lit like light bulbs scare me to death frankly when I think of the voltages involved and the heat of the glass casings (my Quad II's do this to me as well in terms of heat and they're tiny).
 
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