Genelec 8351B Teardown (2nd Disassembled)

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Hi Sebastiaan.

Sorry for the very late reply! I work as an electrician and I'm extremely busy at the moment!

Thank you for the very detailed reply! I've been reading through it and I'm a little jealous of your equipment.

My set up is in a typical English lounge and I'm limited in placement just like you. I currently use Spendor A7 speakers with March Audio P451 Monoblocks.
I use an Anthem STR Pre-Amp as volume control and source selection (This pre-amp has AES/EBU).
For music, I use an Innuos Mini Mk3 with a Linear PSU as a ROON core with TIDAL HIFI as a streaming service.
I use an OPPO UDP 203 for my movies which is hooked up to a Nvidia Shield running a PLEX server. The OPPO downmixes the multichannel from the movies to 2.1.
I use two subwoofers which are placed quite well and I get linear bass from 14hz to the crossover at 80hz.

The Anthem STR has room correction built in but would this work alongside the GLM?

I love your Trinnov! I bet that cost a fortune!!

Are the Genelecs ok near to sidewalls?

Don't be sorry. This is a hobby/passion, not a duty. any time...

Thanks for your information. Although many roads lead to Rome (so to speak), my recommendation would be, Since all your sources are digital anyway, stay entirely in the digital domain through the Genelecs.

If you choose to enter this new DSP corrected speaker era with the Genelecs, much of your current equipment is redundant, and I would suggest selling it and make a fresh start. For example, you don't need the amplifier and DAC section of the Anthem.

The Anthem STR only has a AES/EBU Input, but no AES/EBU out, so this even used as pre-amp cannot feed the Genelecs digitally.

A cost-effective option would the Mini DSP SHD as a digital pre-amp. You can connect your OPPO and Innuos digitally.
Then you can decide whether you want to use DIRAC or GLM or a combination of both. DIRAC will time align and amplitude correct your non-Genelec subs. I have used DIRAC prior to my Trinnov, and DIRAC did an exccellent job managing the subwoofers. I have a fair hope that DIRAC Live Bass Control comes to Mini DSP one day, and from the information, I have seen in theory, this must be an ultimate mutlisub calibration system.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd

Unfortunately, the SHD only has S/PDIF output, so you need to add this Neutrik 75Ohm to 110Ohm convertor. This will not give any degradation in sound quality and works well.
https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/naditbnc-mx

 

[Sparky]

Don't be sorry. This is a hobby/passion, not a duty. any time...

Thanks for your information. Although many roads lead to Rome (so to speak), my recommendation would be, Since all your sources are digital anyway, stay entirely in the digital domain through the Genelecs.

If you choose to enter this new DSP corrected speaker era with the Genelecs, much of your current equipment is redundant, and I would suggest selling it and make a fresh start. For example, you don't need the amplifier and DAC section of the Anthem.

The Anthem STR only has a AES/EBU Input, but no AES/EBU out, so this even used as pre-amp cannot feed the Genelecs digitally.

A cost-effective option would the Mini DSP SHD as a digital pre-amp. You can connect your OPPO and Innuos digitally.
Then you can decide whether you want to use DIRAC or GLM or a combination of both. DIRAC will time align and amplitude correct your non-Genelec subs. I have used DIRAC prior to my Trinnov, and DIRAC did an exccellent job managing the subwoofers. I have a fair hope that DIRAC Live Bass Control comes to Mini DSP one day, and from the information, I have seen in theory, this must be an ultimate mutlisub calibration system.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd

Unfortunately, the SHD only has S/PDIF output, so you need to add this Neutrik 75Ohm to 110Ohm convertor. This will not give any degradation in sound quality and works well.
https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/naditbnc-mx

Thanks for letting me off!

I have been looking into the Genelecs a bit more and I'm a little unsure about their ability to provide enough SPL at my listening position.
I (we) are sat on a couch which is 3 metres away from the speakers I currently own. I think that's known as "far-field" and, after checking Genelecs website for selecting the correct speaker, none of them (except some rather large ugly ones) are appropriate for use at those listening distances.
With them being a near-field monitor, I think I would struggle to make them work in my room which is a bit of a shame really as they would tick a large amount of boxes for me.

I have a question for you. I use the OPPO to downmix multichannel audio from my MKV files via PLEX and transmit that audio via the 7.1 analogue outputs. I am especially keen on keeping the LFE channel. If I decide to go fully digital, what would be the implications of that? Would I lose that LFE channel and, a better question would be, do I even need that LFE channel?
You see, the analogue cable from the .1 output of the OPPO goes direct to the STR which then goes to an MINIDSP 2x4 HD where I can tinker with my two subs to my hearts content. If I lose the analogue don't I lose that functionality?

I will be brutally honest, as good as the Anthem STR Pre-Amp is, it absolute overkill for my needs! I am only using 2 of its many many many inputs and I really shouldn't have spent all that money which is something I deeply regret. I have been through many amps, pre-amps, AVR's, integrated's etc etc to try to find "audio gold" and, all these years and thousands of pounds later, I'm still no better off.

I need to do one of two things, stick to what I have which is incredibly complicated and overkill (I use a harmony remote to control it all and when it goes wrong, it goes massively wrong) or, sell the lot and buy something that is simple but just WORKS.

I've used DIRAC before in an AVR I used to own and know it is good but I also know that REW on its own is just as good if implemented correctly by setting distances within the amp/preamp/DAC etc.

I clearly need a bit of guidance.

 

[Purité Audio]

You need to hear a pair in your room, I don’t believe spl will be a problem, unless you listen really loudly, but I think you may have to sit pretty close to enjoy a fully immersive sound field, I recently sat 2.5 metres away from a pair and the image was very much constrained between the speakers.
Hear them in your own room .
Keith

 

[Sparky]

You need to hear a pair in your room, I don’t believe spl will be a problem, unless you listen really loudly, but I think you may have to sit pretty close to enjoy a fully immersive sound field, I recently sat 2.5 metres away from a pair and the image was very much constrained between the speakers.
Hear them in your own room .
Keith

Thanks Keith.

 

[Sparky]

By the way, I don't listen LOUD really. 85-90db if I have a bit of time to myself to really let my hair down (if I had any hair to begin with ) but mostly (95%) is at 75db or less. Not even told the wife that I'm considering this yet so that's another battle I'll need to fight.

 

[Sparky]

Just read this on the ROON forums which is quite promising as the guy is listening at a 3 metre distance.

 

[Jokerbre]

#Jason K
Do you have any better shots of the board where the amps are located? Close-up of opamp and chips on the printed circuit board. It is still unknown whether it is a DSP or an active crossover.

 

[richard12511]

By the way, I don't listen LOUD really. 85-90db if I have a bit of time to myself to really let my hair down (if I had any hair to begin with ) but mostly (95%) is at 75db or less. Not even told the wife that I'm considering this yet so that's another battle I'll need to fight.

IMO, the 8351b can handle those volumes.

Are you gonna be using subs? That would really affect my decision. With subwoofer help, I'm not sure there's anything out there that can really outperform them. Without subs, though, I do think there is better out there for not much more(D&D 8C studio) or about the same/less(Mesanovic MTM10).

Had a chance several months ago to compare them to the 8C both with and without subs. Without subs, we both thought the 8C was noticeably better for music with deep bass(even at levels the 8351 could handle).

 

[Sparky]

IMO, the 8351b can handle those volumes.

Are you gonna be using subs? That would really affect my decision. With subwoofer help, I'm not sure there's anything out there that can really outperform them. Without subs, though, I do think there is better out there for not much more(D&D 8C studio) or about the same/less(Mesanovic MTM10).

Had a chance several months ago to compare them to the 8C both with and without subs. Without subs, we both thought the 8C was noticeably better for music with deep bass(even at levels the 8351 could handle).

Hi Richard.

I will be using a pair of BK Electronics (UK Brand) XXLS 400's. 12" long throw woofers in a sealed cabinet. I've been using them for a couple of years now and use a minidsp 2x4 to align them. I get flat 14hz to 100hz easily with them.

I would love the 8c's but I'm not convinced about having to use their web/app for volume control etc. They're a fantastic pair of speakers and I feel they would work wonders but they're over budget and there are too many unknowns.

 

[Pearljam5000]

IMO, the 8351b can handle those volumes.

Are you gonna be using subs? That would really affect my decision. With subwoofer help, I'm not sure there's anything out there that can really outperform them. Without subs, though, I do think there is better out there for not much more(D&D 8C studio) or about the same/less(Mesanovic MTM10).

Had a chance several months ago to compare them to the 8C both with and without subs. Without subs, we both thought the 8C was noticeably better for music with deep bass(even at levels the 8351 could handle).

If you take out the bass performance out of the equation (obviously the 8C has more drivers) how would you say the 8351B compares to the 8C?
Soundstage, imaging and details wise?
Thanks.

 

[mkawa]

when i listened to them i was about 3m away and they were superlative. don't think you'll have a problem

8351s that is

 

[Sparky]

If you take out the bass performance out of the equation (obviously the 8C has more drivers) how would you say the 8351B compares to the 8C?
Soundstage, imaging and details wise?
Thanks.

Good question.

 

[Sparky]

when i listened to them i was about 3m away and they were superlative. don't think you'll have a problem

Is that the 8c or the 8351's?

 

[stevenswall]

Cheapest solution for digital into Genelec monitors, with the bonus of simultaneous digital and analogue outputs, people here may be interested in the Dolby DP564.

$250 on Ebay, does 7.1 or 5.1 over optical which is more than most people need. If you have external bass management you could use the additional channels set to "large" to feed other woofers, and each channel can be volume adjusted. (I believe they have delay settings too.)

 

[richard12511]

Hi Richard.

I will be using a pair of BK Electronics (UK Brand) XXLS 400's. 12" long throw woofers in a sealed cabinet. I've been using them for a couple of years now and use a minidsp 2x4 to align them. I get flat 14hz to 100hz easily with them.

I would love the 8c's but I'm not convinced about having to use their web/app for volume control etc. They're a fantastic pair of speakers and I feel they would work wonders but they're over budget and there are too many unknowns.

With subwoofer support, you should be good. I actually slightly preferred them over the 8C when crossed to subs, though it was a tiny preference. I think Genelec had to compromise a bit on the bass extension(relative to similarly priced speakers) in order to achieve the fully point source design in a reasonable size. With subs in the picture, that compromise goes away, and outside of the bass, we haven't seen any speaker that measures as well.

 

[richard12511]

If you take out the bass performance out of the equation (obviously the 8C has more drivers) how would you say the 8351B compares to the 8C?
Soundstage, imaging and details wise?
Thanks.

At the time, the biggest difference was probably that the Genelec was more enveloping(recently I've learned why ), while the D&D was thinner and cleaner sounding. Genelec was a tad brighter. I've learned a lot about the two speakers since then, though, so I'd really like to listen again. At the time, I preferred the slightly wider soundstage and brighter sound of the Genelecs, but I've recently starting implementing a bit of EQ to bring the treble down a bit, so maybe I would have preferred the 8C for longer listening/living.

I do plan to own either the 8C, Salon2(if I can find a good deal), or Kii 3 for my 2 channel system, but that may not be for awhile. I'm waiting until we have ASR or Erin reviews for all 3.

Objectively speaking, the biggest difference is that the 8C maintains directivity control down to 100Hz, whereas the 8351 goes omni below 500Hz(vertically) and 250Hz(horizontally). I'm now pretty sure that's where the more enveloping vs cleaner sound difference came from. I bet the 8351b would sound more like the 8C with the W371 attached, though it's much more expensive.

Hopefully Amir will measure the 8351b soon(he has one) so we can compare the two(objectively) side by side. That to me says far more than subjective impressions.

For now you can get a pretty good idea by comparing the 8341a review to the 8C review.

 

[Pearljam5000]

At the time, the biggest difference was probably that the Genelec was more enveloping(recently I've learned why ), while the D&D was thinner and cleaner sounding. Genelec was a tad brighter. I've learned a lot about the two speakers since then, though, so I'd really like to listen again. At the time, I preferred the slightly wider soundstage and brighter sound of the Genelecs, but I've recently starting implementing a bit of EQ to bring the treble down a bit, so maybe I would have preferred the 8C for longer listening/living.

I do plan to own either the 8C, Salon2(if I can find a good deal), or Kii 3 for my 2 channel system, but that may not be for awhile. I'm waiting until we have ASR or Erin reviews for all 3.

Objectively speaking, the biggest difference is that the 8C maintains directivity control down to 100Hz, whereas the 8351 goes omni below 500Hz(vertically) and 250Hz(horizontally). I'm now pretty sure that's where the more enveloping vs cleaner sound difference came from. I bet the 8351b would sound more like the 8C with the W371 attached, though it's much more expensive.

Hopefully Amir will measure the 8351b soon(he has one) so we can compare the two(objectively) side by side. That to me says far more than subjective impressions.

For now you can get a pretty good idea by comparing the 8341a review to the 8C review.

Thanks a lot.
I guess the 8361A would be a fairer comparison to the 8C.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

By the way, I don't listen LOUD really. 85-90db if I have a bit of time to myself to really let my hair down (if I had any hair to begin with ) but mostly (95%) is at 75db or less. Not even told the wife that I'm considering this yet so that's another battle I'll need to fight.

With subwoofers, they have immense headroom. I hit peaks of 102 dB last night. I never used to listen this loud, but the Genelec's sound so "effortless" that I don't notice how loud it is until I measure.

I have never listened to them loud without subwoofers, but I believe the 8351B's need to be matched with subwoofers (and correction) to transform into a big system. They just sound bigger and punchier with the right subwoofers and tuning.

One critical note, I use a relatively unusual steep 8th order crossover @85Hz, which for sure increases the headroom. The reason is that in my acoustics 8th order @ 85Hz. Provides the punchiest, and most even response.

 

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

I have a question for you. I use the OPPO to downmix multichannel audio from my MKV files via PLEX and transmit that audio via the 7.1 analogue outputs. I am especially keen on keeping the LFE channel. If I decide to go fully digital, what would be the implications of that? Would I lose that LFE channel and, a better question would be, do I even need that LFE channel?
You see, the analogue cable from the .1 output of the OPPO goes direct to the STR which then goes to an MINIDSP 2x4 HD where I can tinker with my two subs to my hearts content. If I lose the analogue don't I lose that functionality?

I will be brutally honest, as good as the Anthem STR Pre-Amp is, it absolute overkill for my needs! I am only using 2 of its many many many inputs and I really shouldn't have spent all that money which is something I deeply regret. I have been through many amps, pre-amps, AVR's, integrated's etc etc to try to find "audio gold" and, all these years and thousands of pounds later, I'm still no better off.

I need to do one of two things, stick to what I have which is incredibly complicated and overkill (I use a harmony remote to control it all and when it goes wrong, it goes massively wrong) or, sell the lot and buy something that is simple but just WORKS.

I've used DIRAC before in an AVR I used to own and know it is good but I also know that REW on its own is just as good if implemented correctly by setting distances within the amp/preamp/DAC etc.

I clearly need a bit of guidance.

I have addressed your SPL concerns in my previous reply. With suitable subwoofers and proper tuning, there isn't a concern at all regarding SPL and your listening distance.

With regards to your LFE question. In the new scenario with the mini DSP SHD pre-amp, the OPPO downmix does embed the LFE signal into your Left/Right mix if you set the L/R speakers to "large" in the menu. I have done this before, and I didn't see any downside on it; the mini DSP with DIRAC will direct all low frequencies, including LFE, to the subwoofers.

 

[Dave Zan]

Well, in fairness to ferrite, it doesn't particularly care if it gets hot...better choice for woofers.

Not sure what the internal temps of woofers are but JBL is (or used to be) a science focused company and they use neo...

I believe the JBL speakers use NdFeB mainly so the speakers are less massive, important especially for the tour speakers for which they are famous.
But NdFeB is an excellent material, the flux density B (in tesla) drops off more slowly than ferrite, as temperature increases.
So at first I suspected the claimed temperature resistance of ferrite was just a convenient excuse by manufacturers of cheap speakers.
However I learned that the temperature behaviour of ferrite is quite complicated and the coercivity actually increases as the temperature increases (to a point).
This is the opposite of NdFeB and has some potential benefits.
But even standard NdFeB can be used to about 100 C in a speaker and there are more temperature tolerant varieties available.
So I am not sure how it plays out in a woofer in practice.
@dfuller do you have actual experience with this or was it based on...?
In any case, thanks for the chance to have learned some new science.

Best wishes
David

Edit. This is kind of off topic for the O/P's discussion of the 8351, sorry.
If anyone is interested then PM me or start a new thread on speaker magnetics.