Stereo downmixing through an AVR - effective or add a centre channel?

[Artsfols]

I'm on the cusp of replacing my beloved Arcam stereo amplifier with a new AVR, likely the Denon 3700.

Question - How will stereo sound through the new AVR when mixing down from 5.1?

A bit more detail. I have a 2.1 system. Without providing too many details, it sounds glorious when playing stereo Blurays, CDs, et cetera. But when using my Apple TV box, the sound quality can vary greatly. The Apple TV box is set to 'stereo output'. Apple no longer provides optical audio out, so the audio travels via HDMI to the television then out through the optical audio output to a converter box and out to analog audio to my amplifier.
That's a long story, but through it all, apps like YouTube still sound excellent - good stereo imaging and all musical elements crisp and accounted for. Other apps like the Metropolitan Opera sound horrid - bad mix with no imaging. And yet, the Metropolitan Opera when sourced in a browser on my entertainment computer through a USB DAC sounds quite good.

I think I will achieve better sound on the Apple TV box, and in general, by plugging my HDMI sources directly into the AVR outputting 5.1, which should down mix effectively to 2.1 including any center channel where present in the source.

Should I count on purchasing a centre channel as well, or could my new setup work well with the 2.1 setup I currently have?

Equipment -
Arcam A80 amplifier, Totem Arro speakers with Totem Tribe sub on its own power amp, Arcam CD73 player, Oppo BDP-95 with special stereo DACs, Asus SMF computer, AudioEngine D1 USB DAC, Fiio optical audio to analog converter, LG OLED television, Apple 4K TV box.

 

[Koeitje]

In my experience a phantom center works fine if you have one listening position, but if you watch with multiple people a center is a good addition.

 

[Propheticus]

Not using a centre speaker myself. Sounds better than the satellite I had room for. So for me phantom centre is better than badly matched real centre.

 

[Artsfols]

Is it safe to say, then, that AVR's have no problem blending the mid-channel with your left and right? Right now, on some programs, it seems something has gone missing. Some program content is stereo already ... so that's not an issue with the current set up. But for content streaming in as 5.1 - it's going through quite a number of steps to get out to my analog stereo amp. Then there is Dolby sound to further confuse things.

 

[rccarguy]

Mixing multi channel down to stereo on my av pre works fine, but I don't have a Denon.

I would recommend having a good quality center speaker, ideally matching from the same range, or if the one from the same range is sucky, go up the range to a better one

 

[Artsfols]

I think I will purchase the center channel which means I have to decide on a center channel speaker. I have Totem Arro's for L and R, and a Totem sub. Very happy with this arrangement. My front runner candidate for the centre channel at this moment is the PSB Imagine XC.
I have read all kinds of warnings about mixing brands when it comes to the center channel.
However, I think that the Audyssey EQ tuning on the Denon AVR's should nullify any difference in coloration. A common sub cross over on the 3 front channels should minimize lower frequency wave effects.
Can anyone see any flaws in my thinking?

 

[SynthesisCinema]

Why not save up for Totem center channel? Any of those is likely closer tonally than PSB.

https://totemacoustic.com/categorie-produit/loudspeakers/center/

 

[Artsfols]

Why not save up for Totem center channel? Any of those is likely closer tonally than PSB.

https://totemacoustic.com/categorie-produit/loudspeakers/center/

The Kin Flex is small and cheap. Thus I'm uncertain about it. The Signature Center is above $2000 CDN. I could spend that, but I'm worried about overpowering the Arro's. I mean, all I think I want is to get the voice separation when watching a movie with 5.1 sound. For stereo music I don't see how the center channel helps, and in fact, I worry that it might mess up a recording engineer's carefully crafted stereo image, that is, when it has been carefully crafted.
They had something called a 'Dreamcatcher Center' which looks a lot like one of my Arro's with only a different cone configuration. If I could find one of those, they'd be my first choice, but it has to be 'cherry' like my Arro's.

 

[Propheticus]

Not saying you should buy a very expensive centre, but: be aware a lot more than just dialogue is mixed to the centre channel in movie soundtracks. Often more than what goes to LR actually.
So if you use one don't undersize/-spec it relative to LR. If movie/series watching is low priority and you don't want to spend too much...try the downmix/phantom first. If that turns out not to work (multiple listening positions outside sweetspot) you can always add a centre.

 

[Artsfols]

Not saying you should buy a very expensive centre, but: be aware a lot more than just dialogue is mixed to the centre channel in movie soundtracks. Often more than what goes to LR actually.
So if you use one don't undersize/-spec it relative to LR. If movie/series watching is low priority and you don't want to spend too much...try the downmix/phantom first. If that turns out not to work (multiple listening positions outside sweetspot) you can always add a centre.

I think I will do exactly that - AVR first, and then see what happens. I've tried to hang on to straight stereo for as long as I can, even purchasing the Oppo with the high end stereo DACs to play SACDs. But it's getting more and more difficult given streaming subscriptions with the Berlin Philharmonic, the NY Metropolitan opera and also the folk/ indie stuff I track on youtube. An AVR should at least deal with 5.1 and a mid-channel track in a more reasonable and controlled way. Movie soundtracks? As long as I can make out what they're saying, it's not much of a concern to me. (And often I can't because of the quirky down mixing going on).

 

[jim33]

5.1 mixes , when folded down by an AVR just use a dumb formula to do the level changes - this is why they are not always great. It's not the fault of the AVR - it's just that the 5.1 mix isn't meant to be folded down without a remix. 2 track versions of films are often made as part of the delivery process but not always used. This 2 track will often sound better for stereo, as it was monitored in stereo - but it's not always put on the disc/streamed. An AVR which can provide some degree of dynamic eq / dial boost will probably help dial clarity. As for a C speaker choice. As all the dial will come out of it - you'll notice the timbre of the voices being good/bad more than you will the content that comes out of the stereo speakers (i.e music / SFX) so I wouldn't skimp on it. Try a stereo setup first as suggested and see how you get on.

 

[Artsfols]

This is been a very beneficial conversation for me, and every post has been helpful in coming to a decision. I wonder if I can pivot the conversation slightly on this thread. Given that I'll likely purchase a Denon amp, and that I'll stay 2.1 for now, I've been doing a deep dive on maintaining top sound quality for the stereo disc listening, which is what I do the most.
So, I've been looking at 'pure direct', 'direct', et cetera, for the analog inputs coming from my two disc players. The basic idea is that I want to bypass the A-D/D-A circuits for my analog inputs. But I want to keep the sub in the equation, and also, which I don't have now, is have a low frequency cut off on the L and R channels.
Q1. If I understand what I've read on other threads, is it the case, for Denon amps, that 'direct' keeps the cut-off (or crossover, whatever it's called) and the sub in the mix if I set my speakers to 'small', and that if speakers are set to 'large' the sub is also bypassed?
Q2. I'll want to push a single button to switch from 'direct' to using the digital circuitry with Audyssey, i.e. to go from playing a music CD to watching a movie on Netflix. Is that possible?
Q3. Will speaker presets help in switching between the different modes of use?

What's behind these questions is a concern that I don't lose anything in audio quality when playing analogue sources compared to my present analogue amp. I have also thought of running my HDMI outputs (Apple TV box, computer) into an AVR as pre-amp, or to be precise, as a pre-processor to my existing integrated amp. But looking at the Denon X2700H, there's no 'line out' or 'tape out' anymore. I take it that the 'Zone 2' outputs are at a constant gain setting and could be used as a 'line out'. Or maybe not. It seems that further front-ending of the existing analogue system is probably a rabbit hole I don't want to enter.

 

[jim33]

I don't own a denon amp but my experience of Zone 2 on a Yamaha amp (may) not provide you want you want. The Zone outputs are essentially a very basic thru of a stereo signal ( on a Yamaha) . As I understand on a Denon the Zone out doesn't have any of the AVR processing applied ( audessy / EQ etc ). The level of the zone 2 can be adjusted independently on my Yamaha, so assume it can on a denon. The level output of these Zones are not as high as a decent pre-amp before clipping. This can cause a problem to some people depending on their setup / volume aspirations. You also need to check if the zone 2 will actually output a signal sent in via HDMI. It doesn't on my Yamaha - it only sends basic stereo signals from stereo inputs. You may need to move up the Denon food chain to get an AVR with Pre-amp outputs which give more flexibility ?

 

[Artsfols]

I don't own a denon amp but my experience of Zone 2 on a Yamaha amp (may) not provide you want you want. The Zone outputs are essentially a very basic thru of a stereo signal ( on a Yamaha) . As I understand on a Denon the Zone out doesn't have any of the AVR processing applied ( audessy / EQ etc ). The level of the zone 2 can be adjusted independently on my Yamaha, so assume it can on a denon. The level output of these Zones are not as high as a decent pre-amp before clipping. This can cause a problem to some people depending on their setup / volume aspirations. You also need to check if the zone 2 will actually output a signal sent in via HDMI. It doesn't on my Yamaha - it only sends basic stereo signals from stereo inputs. You may need to move up the Denon food chain to get an AVR with Pre-amp outputs which give more flexibility ?

It sounds exactly like what I don't want. The idea would be to essentially have what the Pre-amp out provides but at a fixed level. In general I've found that using features for a purpose other than intended gets you into trouble at some point in time. I think once I assure myself that I CAN get decent analog audio amplification from an AVR I'll move ahead with that plan.

 

[Chrispy]

I think you're overthinking it somewhat. You can still listen to two ch sources with much content just by selecting it, but personally not much experience in downmixing as I use them for multich in the first place. Using the dac in a player vs the avr, meh. I've done both with a variety, but never found the player's dac an advantage, so just let the avr do it myself.

 

[jim33]

The zone outputs can normally be set to operate at a pre determined level upon powering up.

 

[Artsfols]

I think you're overthinking it somewhat. You can still listen to two ch sources with much content just by selecting it, but personally not much experience in downmixing as I use them for multich in the first place. Using the dac in a player vs the avr, meh. I've done both with a variety, but never found the player's dac an advantage, so just let the avr do it myself.

I overthink, everything, lol. It's what I like to do. But to clarify, the issue with the analog inputs is that pushing it through the AVR DACs is going to have increased noise over my analog amp. I want the AVR to perform at least as well as my older Arcam amp which I've always liked.
But you do raise another interesting point, and that is my OPPO BDP-95 which has two high end DACS, down mixing circuitry for stereo and sufficient bit width to do a good job on my SACDs. But it's not a decision point because once I get the AVR I can try it the two different ways (taking sound from the OPPO's HDMI output, or from the player DAC. I'll try both and see what kind of sound I get from each method.

 

[Chrispy]

I overthink, everything, lol. It's what I like to do. But to clarify, the issue with the analog inputs is that pushing it through the AVR DACs is going to have increased noise over my analog amp. I want the AVR to perform at least as well as my older Arcam amp which I've always liked.
But you do raise another interesting point, and that is my OPPO BDP-95 which has two high end DACS, down mixing circuitry for stereo and sufficient bit width to do a good job on my SACDs. But it's not a decision point because once I get the AVR I can try it the two different ways (taking sound from the OPPO's HDMI output, or from the player DAC. I'll try both and see what kind of sound I get from each method.

LOL. Why use both dacs if using an external? Audible noise or imagined?

I have an Oppo 203 fwiw as well as a variety of optical disc players. You're level matching and blind comparing of course, eh?

 

[Artsfols]

LOL. Why use both dacs if using an external? Audible noise or imagined?

So my original question was just to ensure that I can bypass the AVR DACs, but still split out the sub. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't use a direct or pure direct setting the analog inputs (from my CD player and from my OPPO player will go through the AVR digital signal processing and I don't want them to. They're already analog. I want them amplified and out to the speakers, that's it.

I have an Oppo 203 fwiw as well as a variety of optical disc players. You're level matching and blind comparing of course, eh?

Right now I'm not doing sh*t, I'm just looking at spec sheets and forums and sorting out what to buy. I think I'm going to buy the Denon X3700H although if I could think of a reason I would get the X4700H.

 

[dougi]

I think I will purchase the center channel which means I have to decide on a center channel speaker. I have Totem Arro's for L and R, and a Totem sub. Very happy with this arrangement. My front runner candidate for the centre channel at this moment is the PSB Imagine XC.
I have read all kinds of warnings about mixing brands when it comes to the center channel.
However, I think that the Audyssey EQ tuning on the Denon AVR's should nullify any difference in coloration. A common sub cross over on the 3 front channels should minimize lower frequency wave effects.
Can anyone see any flaws in my thinking?

I agree. Even my Yamaha YPAO nicely changes the response of my centre to match my mains pretty well. It lifts the crossover dip and lowers the treble a bit. I use "YPAO front" to get it to match to the mains rather than a flat theatre type response. The Denon should be even better and will ability to tweak the EQ individually too, which my level Yamaha does not.