Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[iwantobelieve]

Office Max/Depot. And the interwebs, of course.

Or Ebay for used ones, from people dumping cases after ripping...

 

[MattHooper]

Regarding CD cases, longevity etc.

Until not too long ago I still had most of my CDs (supposedly we are obliged to keep them even if we have ripped them). Plenty of them looked awful - smudgy, dirty, scratched, cracks, you name it. So it really depends like anything how you take care of things. I just recieved a couple of LPs I bought from discogs, one being an original copy of the Star Wars soundtrack circa 1977 and another obscure album from the same time period. The Star Wars album was well stored and literally looks like it just came out of the package, even 44 years later! The other album is close to the same condition. And most of the LPs I have are in satisfyingly good condition (I really don't care for the moth-eaten look). So, it all depends...

 

[Inner Space]

I just recieved a couple of LPs I bought from discogs, one being an original copy of the Star Wars soundtrack circa 1977

Nice ... I remember a 1977 review that said "sounds like Mahler's more cheerful brother." Evidently that stuck with me, for some reason ...

 

[rdenney]

Regarding CD cases, longevity etc.

Until not too long ago I still had most of my CDs (supposedly we are obliged to keep them even if we have ripped them). Plenty of them looked awful - smudgy, dirty, scratched, cracks, you name it. So it really depends like anything how you take care of things. I just recieved a couple of LPs I bought from discogs, one being an original copy of the Star Wars soundtrack circa 1977 and another obscure album from the same time period. The Star Wars album was well stored and literally looks like it just came out of the package, even 44 years later! The other album is close to the same condition. And most of the LPs I have are in satisfyingly good condition (I really don't care for the moth-eaten look). So, it all depends...

As Indiana Jones observed, “It’s not the years, honey, it’s the mileage.”

Rick “lots of damaged jewel cases but very few damaged CD’s” Denney

 

[rdenney]

Nice ... I remember a 1977 review that said "sounds like Mahler's more cheerful brother." Evidently that stuck with me, for some reason ...

Or more like Gustave Holst, Jr.

Rick “at least Williams derived from one of the best” Denney

 

[manokaiser]

There is no such thing as "analogue". It's only a matter of resolution. Everything is digital in this universe, discreet, very very high resolution digital information bits.

I've spent my youth behind vinyl decks, with walls full of vinyl. I understand the feelings.
Nevertheless, I'm all so happy with digital sound, it sounds better and lasts forever.

 

[Jim Matthews]

View attachment 123147

This is a particularly good photograph. Kudos

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

That’s a snide and ignorant comment on so many levels I’m embarrassed for you.

Thank you. My wife and kids agree.

 

[Chrispy]

Every time I see this thread title I just think "if only they did"

 

[Robin L]

Thank you. My wife and kids agree.

Consider the source:

"please do. Get the popcorn ready and then shove it up your ass, but move aside the ***** to make room. How's that? "

I'm not sure what Mikey means by "*****".

 

[Frgirard]

There is no such thing as "analogue". It's only a matter of resolution. Everything is digital in this universe, discreet, very very high resolution digital information bits.

I've spent my youth behind vinyl decks, with walls full of vinyl. I understand the feelings.
Nevertheless, I'm all so happy with digital sound, it sounds better and lasts forever.

Everything is numeric. The digital is a way to treat a numeric signal.

The cinema is 24 samples per second.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

I had about 200 LP's in my collection when the CD came out, never bought another one since.
I did a very time consuming and serious ripping of all of them just before I moved to FL
I've never listened to a single one since I got my first streaming account.
All that work for nothing.

I can't begin to tell you how many cd-rs I burned 'for my car' etc that were never again listened too.

Tidal is great. So much new music. I love lps but damn expensive.

 

[Dialectic]

There is no such thing as "analogue". It's only a matter of resolution. Everything is digital in this universe, discreet, very very high resolution digital information bits.

I've spent my youth behind vinyl decks, with walls full of vinyl. I understand the feelings.
Nevertheless, I'm all so happy with digital sound, it sounds better and lasts forever.

I wonder if your post will trigger the vinyl enthusiasts, but there is indeed reason to believe that everything is discrete.

 

[j_j]

I wonder if your post will trigger the vinyl enthusiasts, but there is indeed reason to believe that everything is discrete.

Is pulse position modulation discrete? That's how the ear talks to the brain, after all.

 

[Mart68]

Is pulse position modulation discrete? That's how the ear talks to the brain, after all.

I'm out of my depth here but I'm going to say yes.

 

[restorer-john]

I think blind tests would refute that.

The question in my mind is why do people still listen to vinyl anyways, knowing the sound is not not as 'good' (including myself).
This is the direction the thread was headed, after the OPs claim was shot down with alacrity.

There's no doubt that many of the 1980s 12" 45RPM dance singles were mastered to sound way better than the 7" singles and the CD/LP album releases. I have a ton of them and some are so dynamic sounding and punchy, they are incredible.

Basically, the entire width of a 12" record for a 4-7 minute song at 45RPM made for some wonderful pressings. Pity the music itself hasn't stood the test of time...

 

[restorer-john]

@Frank Dernie Did you ever investigate the possibility of having classical records cut to play from the inside out? It makes so much sense as most classical starts of quietly and progresses to the climax which always ends up on the inner grooves.

I believe there is a company that pressed Ravel's Bolero that way- a very suitable candidate if you ask me. Obviously, it ends in a locked groove... (Wouldn't want to play the platter edge would we?)

The automatic turntables would have fun with it and most linear trackers would refuse to play it at all as they only move forward, not backward. A few do (notably the Pioneer PLL-1000/a) but it wouldn't start from the inner tracks...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Did you ever investigate the possibility of having classical records cut to play from the inside out?

I was only involved in the R& D and design of the record players themselves and my knowledge of record cutting is learned from that.
I had heard of records cut that way but saw it as a novelty.
Also, the market was very different then. LP was the main music source and making a substantial increase in the accuracy of pickup was always targeted at inexpensive clever engineering since the majority were not able to buy expensive kit.
Today record players are mainly an expensive and stylish hobby and whilst the engineering is still important there is a lot more non-technically correct BS in the marketing than there was 50 years ago

I remember one mod one of the engineers came up with which was simply a hole punched into the (pressed steel) chassis which prevented one of the vibration modes getting to the arm base at a frequency where it would pass up the arm to the cartridge body, where it would falsely appear in the cartridge output as signal. The production cost was negligible yet the improvement was measureable.

Now the buzz is all about "rigid" which is just wrong since firstly, nothing is rigid over the full range of audio frequencies and the more rigid the arm and plinth the higher up the frequency range spurious vibration can get up the arm to the cartridge body .
It is static thinking applied to a dynamic system and wrong, but even lots of engineers have trouble getting their heads round dynamics. My first boss of the first R&D department told me he saw what the maths showed but couldn't get his head round it so preferred statics!

 

[restorer-john]

I remember one mod one of the engineers came up with which was simply a hole punched into the (pressed steel) chassis which prevented one of the vibration modes getting to the arm base at a frequency where it would pass up the arm to the cartridge body, where it would falsely appear in the cartridge output as signal. The production cost was negligible yet the improvement was measureable.

You've seen some amazing chit Frank.

 

[tuga]

Wouldn't it be much nice

I was only involved in the R& D and design of the record players themselves and my knowledge of record cutting is learned from that.
I had heard of records cut that way but saw it as a novelty.
Also, the market was very different then. LP was the main music source and making a substantial increase in the accuracy of pickup was always targeted at inexpensive clever engineering since the majority were not able to buy expensive kit.
Today record players are mainly an expensive and stylish hobby and whilst the engineering is still important there is a lot more non-technically correct BS in the marketing than there was 50 years ago

I remember one mod one of the engineers came up with which was simply a hole punched into the (pressed steel) chassis which prevented one of the vibration modes getting to the arm base at a frequency where it would pass up the arm to the cartridge body, where it would falsely appear in the cartridge output as signal. The production cost was negligible yet the improvement was measureable.

Now the buzz is all about "rigid" which is just wrong since firstly, nothing is rigid over the full range of audio frequencies and the more rigid the arm and plinth the higher up the frequency range spurious vibration can get up the arm to the cartridge body .
It is static thinking applied to a dynamic system and wrong, but even lots of engineers have trouble getting their heads round dynamics. My first boss of the first R&D department told me he saw what the maths showed but couldn't get his head round it so preferred statics!

What do you think of Meitner's AT-2 platterless turntable from an engineering point of view?

http://www.museatex.com/at2.htm

The platter is replaced by a metal flywheel with knife-edge machinings to support the record beneath the label area. The playing surface of the record couples to air on top and bottom.

Turntable designers have made enhancements to platters and mats through the years. As far as they have evolved, however, platters and mats are left with one fundamental problem. The point at which the record contacts the mat or platter is an energy interface that vibrations, traveling at high velocities, must traverse. These vibrations will not be completely absorbed by the interfacing surface, and a significant portion of the energy will be "mirrored" back into the record. Because most of the energy is generated by the cartridge stylus, this is the area to receive most of the reflected energy. The result is a form of distortion read by the stylus and incorporated into the music signal.

Overlooked by most, the twelve inch diameter of the typical record makes it an increasingly ideal half-wave coupler of acoustic energy from the lower mid-range up, and improving as the frequency rises. The record naturally dissipates vibrations, particularly at the levels and frequencies that they occur, to air. Thus air becomes the absorbent "platter", the only substance that does not give energy back to the record.