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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

FrantzM

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I just want great speakers...Is there a ASR consensus on a great speaker reasonably priced that plays reference level plus?

How big is your room?
How far would be the listening position from the speakers?

Two simplistic question for an ever more simplistic answer. No flippancy involved.
 

righthookmike

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outdoor porch closed on three sides. pool table ,dart board. foosball... so no real listening position. I need something with a large sweet spot so I know its a tradeoff
 

TheBatsEar

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I'm not against a healthy debate. I'm against the wholesale closing off discussions because someone holds a different opinion than my own, in the interest of "harmony". If you've been on some of these other forums, you may have seen me fight against exactly that same attitude from the forum owner and "golden ear" audiophiles trying to stop any discussions that go against the grain. Harmony is status quo, and to me, that's a dead-end.

Totally agree with this. If voices like that keep defining the local culture, this place will be valuable for years to come.
 

rdenney

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outdoor porch closed on three sides. pool table ,dart board. foosball... so no real listening position. I need something with a large sweet spot so I know its a tradeoff

Look at PA speakers. I’m thinking JBL line arrays are tailor-made for the application you describe.

Rick “outdoor-rated, efficient, high power handling, wide horizontal directivity, minimal loss of SPL with distance, etc.” Denney
 

BDWoody

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outdoor porch closed on three sides. pool table ,dart board. foosball... so no real listening position. I need something with a large sweet spot so I know its a tradeoff

JBL708's

Edit: Do these need to be weather-resistant? Maybe something else then...
 

richard12511

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Why must we make that point? What compels us to make that point? What can be gained by not saying BS when someone talks BS?

"You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

I think there's value in convincing people to come over to the objective side. The more people we can convince, the smaller the market becomes for those snake oil salesmen.

Not saying it's easy to convince someone they're wrong. Even if stated in the kindest way possible, it's still difficult, but it's easier than trying to do it in a combative manner.
 

NTK

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I think trying to convince someone we are having a debate with on an internet forum is pretty much hopeless. The person has most likely already made up his/her mind.

What is not hopeless is trying to convince the dozens of other people watching/reading the debate, who have not firmly made up their minds and are much more receptive to persuasive arguments. Coming off as being a-hole is not going to help convincing these people.
 
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"There are things i can hear, but nobody can measure."

Ok Batman, but that is as antiscientific as "If we can't measure it, it doesn't exist (or is not audible)".

The point is: ok if you can hear it...stop claims, please let me see you can really hear it.
If you demonstrate you can, then we will search for measurement we lack.
If not, well my friend...my pleasure to talk with you.

That is IMHO good "scientific" attitude, not harsh attack against whatever the poor little tweko-audiophile declare.
 
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TheBatsEar

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Ok Batman, but that is as antiscientific as "If we can't measure it, it doesn't exist (or is not audible) ".

The point is: ok if you can hear it...stop claims, please let me see you can really hear it.
If you demonstrate you can, then we will search the measurement we lack.

But there never is such a demonstration, is there?

People around here have heard those claims a hundred times. They have heard claims about records sounding by design better than CDs hundreds of times. They have heard claims that the stage opens even more if you paint the outside of your CDs hundreds of times. They have heard that interconnects change the musicality hundreds of times. They have heard about fast caps, harsh resistors and warm tubes. Silver cable sounds analytic, copper sounds wholesome. Hundreds, maybe even thousands of times.

I don't mind if someone gets harsh with them.

In fact, i say good for all three sides. Good that the rationalists still care enough, that they don't sell out for a bit of harmony. Good for those that receive the harshness, for they have the opportunity to learn. And good for those silent readers mentioned by @NTK, for they can consider the arguments without risk.

Why would i want those that clearly have mastered rational thought, to appease the idiots for a morsel of harmony?
 

BDWoody

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I don't mind if someone gets harsh with them.

In fact, i say good for all three sides. Good that the rationalists still care enough, that they don't sell out for a bit of harmony. Good for those that receive the harshness, for they have the opportunity to learn. And good for those silent readers mentioned by @NTK, for they can consider the arguments without risk.

Why would i want those that clearly have mastered rational thought, to appease the idiots for a morsel of harmony?

It isn't about appeasing idiots, as the true idiots dig their own graves, and 'management' usually lets them for a while...we have facts on our side, so silencing people for disagreement isn't needed, as it is in most other audio fora. They end up making our case for us.

It's about not categorizing everyone who comes here without some acceptable level of either understanding or agreement as idiots needing harsh correction.

It is the thousandth time for us, but the first time for them, and MANY will have little context to put any of it in until they get much further up the learning curve.

Fortunately, we have a ton of very patient and helpful people who will almost always answer almost every 'dumb' question without making it a point to make the person feel stupid. Ignorance doesn't make them the enemy, it makes them gullible.

For those who feel they need to show up in every 'dumb/repeated' question thread to point out that it's a dumb repeated question, don't.

Rather, feel free to post a link to a thread where it's been covered, or be helpful with an actual answer, but prowling around looking for people to smack around isn't what we're about either.

The more we keep completely cool, calm and collected in the face of the nonsense, the more it is appropriately minimized.

The occasional 'uh huh' can be worth a lot more than some great detailed treatise on how stupid people are.

Let's not put up with nonsense, but let's do it in a way that isn't designed to antagonize, rather than to inform. Some are better at this than others...
 
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righthookmike

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"You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

I think there's value in convincing people to come over to the objective side. The more people we can convince, the smaller the market becomes for those snake oil salesmen.

Not saying it's easy to convince someone they're wrong. Even if stated in the kindest way possible, it's still difficult, but it's easier than trying to do it in a combative manner.
It isn't about appeasing idiots, as the true idiots dig their own graves, and 'management' usually lets them for a while...we have facts on our side, so silencing people for disagreement isn't needed, as it is in most other audio fora. They end up making our case for us.

It's about not categorizing everyone who comes here without some acceptable level of either understanding or agreement as idiots needing harsh correction.

It is the thousandth time for us, but the first time for them, and MANY will have little context to put any of it in until they get much further up the learning curve.

Fortunately, we have a ton of very patient and helpful people who will almost always answer almost every 'dumb' question without making it a point to make the person feel stupid. Ignorance doesn't make them the enemy, it makes them gullible.

For those who feel they need to show up in every 'dumb/repeated' question thread to point out that it's a dumb repeated question, don't.

Rather, feel free to post a link to a thread where it's been covered, or be helpful with an actual answer, but prowling around looking for people to smack around isn't what we're about either.

The more we keep completely cool, calm and collected in the face of the nonsense, the more it is appropriately minimized.

The occasional 'uh huh' can be worth a lot more than some great detailed treatise on how stupid people are.

Let's not put up with nonsense, but let's do it in a way that isn't designed to antagonize, rather than to inform. Some are better at this than others...

there also has to be some balance though. You can't just state power cords don't make a difference. There's more resistance in thinner gauge wire . Charging thousands for a 3ft power cord is BS but electrical devices overloading trying to draw enough power isn't BS. Stating unequivocally in the face of facts and claiming science doesn't win many people over. Also, why all the animosity towards "audiophile" doesn't it really describe those who have a passion for music and the components we love to play with?(and I still just want awesome speakers)
 

TheBatsEar

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It is the thousandth time for us, but the first time for them, and MANY will have little context to put any of it in until they get much further up the learning curve.

There are people that have never bothered to research what was claimed in a magazine. That is the kind of people you talk about. I get them, was one of them once. As you can see in my history, i may even help out with a bit of wisdom here and there.

The sophisticated "Golden Ear", however, has had plenty opportunity to consider rational arguments, they usually had conversations about them several times on other forums. They know all your arguments. They come to troll, to be smug, feel superior, belittle, dominate or show off. Any community that accepts them and their opinion as equally valid, to gain a bit of harmony, will suffer.

BTW, i'm not always that dark. ;)
 

Robin L

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I just want great speakers...Is there a ASR consensus on a great speaker reasonably priced that plays reference level plus?
Define "Reasonably Priced."
 

righthookmike

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Define "Reasonably Priced."
HMMMM. Is this the beginning of a negotiation? My budget right now would be 3,000. I haven't bought new speakers since 1987 when I found an envelope of cash taped to the wall of a closet when moving into an apartment. I am looking used unless it's something special
 

richard12511

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I think trying to convince someone we are having a debate with on an internet forum is pretty much hopeless. The person has most likely already made up his/her mind.

What is not hopeless is trying to convince the dozens of other people watching/reading the debate, who have not firmly made up their minds and are much more receptive to persuasive arguments. Coming off as being a-hole is not going to help convincing these people.

It's not completely hopeless. It's happened with at least 2 people here. Very unlikely, though, I agree. Nobody likes admitting they're wrong.
 
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