Triangle Esprit Antal Ez Review (Tower Speaker)

[B4ICU]

I'm not gonna get into the core of this discussion you're having with people here, but with regards to EQ, EQ is not a "70's idea", it's a very useful tool which can improve every speaker out there, both in RoomEQ and also Anechoic EQ of the speaker (using Amir's measurements).....EQ is definitely a positive. You do loose some headroom in the amp by having to run a negative preamp to cover the boosts in your EQ Curve, but most of the time it'll probably only be in the range of -5dB.....there's enough headroom in good amps & DACS to handle that without negative effects. Anyway, this is just a point re EQ that you raised, not the main point you're discussing with others here....so I'll let you continue with your main discussions with others on here.

Six (6) dB is = to 4 times of amplitude.
On binary scale (DAC) you turn a 16 bit into a 14 bit DAC.
On analog power, its 1/4 of whatever your power Amp. outputs.
I do not see guys buying a 14 bit DAC, or pay for an X Watts power amp, but compromise with a 1/4 of it.
Regardless of Dynamic headroom, EQ has more downsides. Why using one if you can buy a linear component and avoid it?

Room EQ, Speaker EQ, just EQ...they all have those problems. You are good with it, I'm not.
Tried it with a SONY TA-2000ESD. It has a 91 bands parametric EQ with 0.1 dB att. and a sharp Q as 0.5 up to 20. 3 Fr. to set. As good as it gets.
Any attempt using it sounded worse than go direct.

 

[B4ICU]

The amp is rated at 1000/ch at 4 ohms. There is no concern there. Regarding cables, you talk as if this some exotic domain of audio. It is well understood and any reasonable cable 12 awg cable from Canare or the like will suffice. As to eq' a 50K speaker, of course I would. Why would I disadvantage myself of the opportunity to ensure the speaker is not performing at its best in the room it is being used? As you may know, the JBL M2, the Kii and Dutch & Dutch make extremely well regarded speakers, and they all use digital eq. B&O's highly regarded Beolab 90 costs 120K and relies on digital eq. The Wisdom Audio LS4 costs in excess of 100K and requires DSP (the Infinite Grand 700K). The Adam Audio Olympus Sound System (OSS) cost $340,000 and requres DSP. I'm guessing you get the point. The x-overs used in every well designed expensive speaker are equing the sound. DSP is required for any audio system pursuing excellence. I have no idea what flat, clear sound means, but if your pursuit is to ensure the speakers perform as well as possible in the environment they are used, DSP is a must.

Yes, I read the power ratings etc'. No DF figure to find. What is the DF?
I'm always get sceptical when a firm drops the DF for a reason. Some claim it is not important. Others rather not say. Yes, that is required.
Practically, it is more important than all others, when it gets to speaker cables resistance calculation.

For EQ and DSP: Show me a classical musical instrument that has one.
Lets play it in that room, you placed your system. Do they need now an EQ or DSP?
Now allow in two more. Make it a trio. Is now an EQ or DSP would make them sound better?
I know that there are guys who get to a live concert and get a good seat, but claim that the sound at home is better.
Really?

 

[Vini darko]

Yes, I read the power ratings etc'. No DF figure to find. What is the DF?
I'm always get sceptical when a firm drops the DF for a reason. Some claim it is not important. Others rather not say. Yes, that is required.
Practically, it is more important than all others, when it gets to speaker cables resistance calculation.

For EQ and DSP: Show me a classical musical instrument that has one.
Lets play it in that room, you placed your system. Do they need now an EQ or DSP?
Now allow in two more. Make it a trio. Is now an EQ or DSP would make them sound better?
I know that there are guys who get to a live concert and get a good seat, but claim that the sound at home is better.
Really?

Can a trumpet be a double bass? Can a double bass be a piano? A speaker must be all of this and more. That it may need some assistance in the endeavor is understandable.

 

[Robbo99999]

Six (6) dB is = to 4 times of amplitude.
On binary scale (DAC) you turn a 16 bit into a 14 bit DAC.
On analog power, its 1/4 of whatever your power Amp. outputs.
I do not see guys buying a 14 bit DAC, or pay for an X Watts power amp, but compromise with a 1/4 of it.
Regardless of Dynamic headroom, EQ has more downsides. Why using one if you can buy a linear component and avoid it?

Room EQ, Speaker EQ, just EQ...they all have those problems. You are good with it, I'm not.
Tried it with a SONY TA-2000ESD. It has a 91 bands parametric EQ with 0.1 dB att. and a sharp Q as 0.5 up to 20. 3 Fr. to set. As good as it gets.
Any attempt using it sounded worse than go direct.

6dB of attenuation is half power, not quarter. (I was thinking SPL rather than power required of an amp so I struckthrough my previous sentence). With a DAC & dynamic range, if you run 24bit mode in your software then any volume control via implementation of a negative preamp will barely reduce real dynamic range, in as much as 24bit has tons of headroom to allow for running below 0dBFS without reducing dynamic range beyond a significant level. And if you choose to run in 32bit mode then you have even more dynamic range. Note that this doesn't mean you have to have your playback source material recorded in 24bit or 32bit mode, it can still be 16bit material, just it's important to set the system (eg Windows on PC) to 24bit or more so as not to lose any dynamic range when using negative preamps.

So, there is plenty of headroom in good DACS (SNR) as well as dynamic range to allow for negative preamps & therefore EQ. And there's also enough power in good amps to allow for EQ, even if a -3dB preamp change equates to large numerical loss in potential power in terms of Watts, it doesn't matter....if it's loud enough it's loud enough, inbuilt amps on both my 308p speakers can drive it to plenty loud enough levels with negative preamps....same is true for good headphone amps. I think you're making a big deal about negative preamps & EQ, it's not a big deal in terms of negative effects.

 

[Dogen]

My bad, my apoligies. You clearly implied that when you stated they had poor sensitivity, I erroneously assumed you meant high. A sensitivity of 92 dB is not bad with low powered amps. I have used some in the past that could work well with as little as 10 w/ch (however, if by low powered you mean 2-3 w/ch, then it gets pretty tough). But as you know, there are a number of factors that would determined compatibility; i.e. room size, what is the desired output, is it being assisted by a sub...and so on.

Yes, I wasn’t clear in my original post. It’s sad and funny that brands get reputations that are belied by their measurements. Triangle has a rep in the audiophile press as good with low power tube amps. Wouldn’t try it with these! But as you say, lots of complicating factors.

 

[dfuller]

For EQ and DSP: Show me a classical musical instrument that has one.
Lets play it in that room, you placed your system. Do they need now an EQ or DSP?
Now allow in two more. Make it a trio. Is now an EQ or DSP would make them sound better?

This is an erroneous argument if I've ever heard one. Recorded music is a totally different ballgame from live, and speakers have to accurately reproduce the sound of a lot of instruments. That alone makes it rather more important that the speaker itself isn't injecting its own sound in - and parametric EQ can improve this a lot.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Links to discussions over cables... Please get serious. What make you buying that say? Did you ever tried it? Well I did and they do not hold water (An expression in Hebrew). For the record, the lame say of 12-14 AWG are all you need are absolutely incorrect.
The 1st thing to look at, is that a cable resistance (R) = Ro (copper constant conductivity) x length (in meters) and / by it's cross section in sq. mm.
As so, If checking the AWG table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm, a 14 AWG has a 2.525 ohms per 1000m. A 12 AWG has a 1.588 ohms per 1000m. It does not provide a solution for any resistance you may calculate. Up's did you ever tried this trick? As I remember, the only thing you measure about cables, is the length. So if they are long enough, you are done? Wrong. So wrong!
The reason for 14-12 AWG has nothing to do with audio or electronics. It is the thicker wire to use as is with standard banana plugs or spades.
I hope that when you go for a heart bypass surgery, you will get better than this.
Amps have a DF spec. for a reason. The cables resistance shall consider that and be calculated accordingly. For higher DF the thicker the cable you need. How thick? well up to the calculated value. If you go thicker, sound won't improve. If you are under, like 50% under, you get only 50% of your system's potential. Yes, 50%. You read correctly. In other words, if you spent $40k on your sound system, you are hearing only $20k worth.
So you rather go by some articles on the web, and flash down the toilet $20k? Now it makes sense. Try it first with a $100 bill, get the feeling and than enhance it with the rest.

Trolling hard here.
It really seems you just want to argue rather than get inspired by the info here. There is a ton of research out there on why you need expensive cables and all of it is provided conveniently by each manufacturer.
Beyond that there is little evidence to support high end cables.
Gene from Audioholics recent post on wires is a decent one.

The Mark Levison amp used here is $25k per mono side and $50k a pair. The Revel speakers $20k, the Klipple, precision audio and other test gear $120k+. Many more "K's" spend buying products to test. I have no idea how exact the "k" factor fits in but clearly there has not been expense spared in getting a quality reference system and quality measurement tools to set a bar to compare/contrast sound with.

For EQ and DSP: Show me a classical musical instrument that has one.
Lets play it in that room, you placed your system. Do they need now an EQ or DSP?
Now allow in two more. Make it a trio. Is now an EQ or DSP would make them sound better?
I know that there are guys who get to a live concert and get a good seat, but claim that the sound at home is better.
Really?

Howdy, this is based on your logic. Show me a classical instrument that has any electronics involved at all?
There are none - zero classical instruments have electronics involved.

Electronic do come into play with these instruments if you are recording and then playing it back or if you are amping it for live sound.
In both cases due to distortions in the reproduction, the sound will be altered. DSP and PEQ are just another tool to harness technology and coach the reproduction. They are no different from woofers, tweeters, wood, screws, paper, metal parts, resistors, wool, wires anything that contributes it's substance toward the reproduction.

Toward the best setting for sound - yes my stereo is usually better than anything I hear live. I rarely hear unamplified concerts and those sound reinforcement people work very hard just to get some decent sound that my home stereo generally surpasses. In terms of hearing something like a live harpist or a violin, piano, unamped guitar, ect then yes - if I am in a good spot it usually does sound more real, that is for sure. Hard to argue with that. Does it sound better? Depends on whether it my GF's 5 year old nephew or someone a bit more ready to be criticized ya know?
Still pretty impressive what a well engineer HiFi audio system can do. Love it!

 

[Rick Sykora]

Good to see some tower speakers added to the mix! Wish it were something I recognized, but will consider them to be a learning opp.

In that regard, what is the box thingy behind the speaker in the review pic? Looks like a fancy cooling system with meters. Maybe am just too young to know.

 

[richard12511]

I think the main reason to get floor standers instead of stand mounts is to get lower bass. Not here though. Even my tiny Genelec 8020a beat them with an f3 of 66 Hz.

Is it possible that they are designed for a specific distance from the front wall and rely on reflections to fill the falling FR below 90 Hz?

How sure are we that the NFS is getting the bass extension right? It seems to do fine for small bookshelfs, but seems to struggle with ported towers. Again, I have to say I'm a bit skeptical here.

Triangle lists the -3dB point as 40Hz
NFS lists the -6dB point as 55Hz

Who do we believe? Generally I trust third party measurements, but in the case of the NFS, I'm not so sure. The NFS also says that the Revel M16 has better extension (45Hz) than the Revel F328Be(48Hz). It also says the JBL HDI 1600 has better extension (38Hz) than the JBL HDI 3800(41Hz) and JBL HDI 3600(46Hz).

Erin recently provided a ground plane measurement with his review of the JBL HDI 4500, and it (oddly) it matched perfectly, so we know it is correct with that speaker. Physically, that's a huge ported speaker, so I don't know why it would succeed with that one, but fail the others. Maybe the tweeter being in the center of the cabinet? Someone mentioned in the DIY Klippel effort that it has something to do with certain frequencies being blocked from the mic by the large distance between drivers.

 

[richard12511]

Would you EQ a $50k speaker?

Absolutely! In fact, a $50k speaker with no EQ is almost guaranteed to sound bad. EQ is necessary for good sound.

 

[MZKM]

Absolutely! In fact, a $50k speaker with no EQ is almost guaranteed to sound bad. EQ is necessary for good sound.

Can you explain? Or was that a jab at companies not following the research and selling super expensive speakers that measure poorly?

 

[MZKM]

In that regard, what is the box thingy behind the speaker in the review pic? Looks like a fancy cooling system with meters.

You mean his Mark Levinson amp?

 

[richard12511]

Can you explain? Or was that a jab at companies not following the research and selling super expensive speakers that measure poorly?

Not meant as a jab. I just mean that it's very unlikely that you're gonna have a good response in the bass with no form of EQ. All speakers need EQ to sound good in room.

 

[MZKM]

Not meant as a jab. I just mean that it's very unlikely that you're gonna have a good response in the bass with no form of EQ. All speakers need EQ to sound good in room.

Gotcha.

 

[typericey]

Waiting for rave reviews of this speaker from:

Steve G.
Andrew Robinson (with bonus clickbait title and thumbnail)
Zero Fidelity
Thomas & Stereo
The Next Best Thing Studio

 

[Rick Sykora]

You mean his Mark Levinson amp?

No the one looming over it with the big wheels!

 

[beagleman]

Yes, I read the power ratings etc'. No DF figure to find. What is the DF?
I'm always get sceptical when a firm drops the DF for a reason. Some claim it is not important. Others rather not say. Yes, that is required.
Practically, it is more important than all others, when it gets to speaker cables resistance calculation.

For EQ and DSP: Show me a classical musical instrument that has one.
Lets play it in that room, you placed your system. Do they need now an EQ or DSP?
Now allow in two more. Make it a trio. Is now an EQ or DSP would make them sound better?
I know that there are guys who get to a live concert and get a good seat, but claim that the sound at home is better.
Really?

I truly mean no disrespect to you at all, but....having said that......

1. You are going off on all kind of tangents
2. You seem like you are here to school everyone about how wrong they are
3. Perhaps all these "Issues" you seem to have, regarding the review and so on, would be more productively questioned in direct communication with the guy doing the review.
4. Some of the things you are bringing up, are not common issues shared by most audiophiles. Hence they seem to really come out of left field.
5. I get the feeling you think someone has wronged you, OR you are trolling the forum.

Please do not bother replying back to my comments, as I am simply saying what I am sure many are thinking.

 

[theyellowspecial]

For EQ and DSP: Show me a classical musical instrument that has one.
Lets play it in that room, you placed your system. Do they need now an EQ or DSP?
Now allow in two more. Make it a trio. Is now an EQ or DSP would make them sound better?
I know that there are guys who get to a live concert and get a good seat, but claim that the sound at home is better.
Really?

EQ for a speaker is like tuning for an instrument.

 

[LTig]

Amps have a DF spec. for a reason. The cables resistance shall consider that and be calculated accordingly. For higher DF the thicker the cable you need. How thick? well up to the calculated value. If you go thicker, sound won't improve. If you are under, like 50% under, you get only 50% of your system's potential. Yes, 50%. You read correctly. In other words, if you spent $40k on your sound system, you are hearing only $20k worth.

That would be a very thin cable to lose 50% of the power in it.
DF as a means to get a hard grip on the drivers is overrated since the serious impedance of the voice coil prevents it in the first place, not to mention any passive crossover.

 

[LTig]

How sure are we that the NFS is getting the bass extension right? It seems to do fine for small bookshelfs, but seems to struggle with ported towers. Again, I have to say I'm a bit skeptical here.

No need to be skeptical. Since @amirm got the NFS there were several cases where its results raised doubts and in all cases it was proven that it was right, either by second source measurements or because the tested speaker was defective.