Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[respice finem]

How are you liking the sound so far?

So far I'm putting all stuff (stands and the grilles) together, setting the exact placement...
Got them today, so no measurements and listening test yet.
My expectation of them is not having too much "character", but being "transparent and precise".
We will see (or hear), tomorrow evening I think, today I'm too tired to do much more.

 

[DSJR]

Three and a half grand (UK £) and maybe with waf-acceptable grilles, these are a bit of a bargain really when you look at the horrors available on the UK 'HiFi' market. Much as I love the brand, the ATC 25A's are rather more costly (doubkle?) and I just couldn't today afford the ott engineering for domestic use. Latest XD versions of my love-hate Harbeth SHL5's are five grand which horrified me frankly and make me angry in a way and these are nothing compared to the lavish audiophile/audiophool confections on the high end audio scene...

 

[monkeyboy]

I purchased the grills as well, I have the monitors on stands about elbow height and was a bit paranoid about them getting damaged...I'm curious to see how the grills impact measurements...

 

[respice finem]

#502: As I'm slowly starting to notice my age, and cannot travel (for obvious reasons), I've decided to "invest" in them. Surrogate gratification, so to speak Time will show if it was money well spent. I'll be 54 this year, in 20 years I'm 74, so the time to live a good life is now. I tend, more and more, to think that money (in cash or immaterial forms) not spent is only of indirect, and volatile value for me as an individual. What contributes to this, I've witnessed a system failure in my childhood (Poland in the 80s and early 90s), that set all back to zero financially (hyperinflation). Sorry for (s)OT, but such experiences are very much influencing later decisions.

 

[respice finem]

I purchased the grills as well, I have the monitors on stands about elbow height and was a bit paranoid about them getting damaged...I'm curious to see how the grills impact measurements...

Just tried "provisorically" as mounting /unmounting is a bit of a hassle with those felt thingies. It may be measurable but frankly, "screw it", I can't even force myself to hear a difference (mono, 1m in front of it) and the rest may be as it will, I'm not an audio analyzer after all After this mini-test I know the influence of the room will be "orders of magnitude" more.
So, I will do the measurements with the grilles on (tomorrow at earliest).

 

[respice finem]

OK now I'm done setting them up. Measurements, as expected, not remotely as good as in Amir's test. My room is not studio-like, a lightly treated living room, and an L-shaped one. Didn't stop me from long listening with an increasingly stupid grin on my face before even measuring
FR frl-rfnjah.jpg (3679×1600) (abload.de)
group delay gruppenlaufzeitt6jp0.jpg (3766×1582) (abload.de)
THD thdcnj8b.jpg (3672×1617) (abload.de)
reverb nachhallkrk3b.jpg (3654×1613) (abload.de)
early rev. frhenachhallzeitx6j5f.jpg (3650×1619) (abload.de)
clarity deutlichkeitaijeb.jpg (3660×1610) (abload.de)
The way it looks, I should EQ a bit in the lows, but not much more.
The settings: in the RME Auto Ref Level on, SPL matches (alas dBA meter only and not C) with the LS gain at -0dB and level switch at 94, the "tone" switches at 0dB for bass and mids, -2dB for treble. 2m stereo triangle, the sitting a bit above ear level tilted towards the listening position and toed in according to Neumann's recommendations.

I'm a poor(er) but happy man

Sidenote: Since the LS don't have auto standby and draw 50W in idle (pair) I tried to be clever and bought a socket strip with a foot switch, which sadly doesn't work as expected, causing clicks every few minutes when off. When on / idle, or when switched off at the speaker, all is well.

 

[respice finem]

Update on the socket strip issue: solved, if a bit... radically: https://www.thomann.de/de/furman_ac210_power_conditioner.htm
no problems at all now

 

[Pritaudio]

Anyone have experience with kh310 vs kh120 with dsp kh750 subwoofer.
keen to know if it is just as resolving. And also volume difference before distorting.
many thanks.

 

[Zzzzz...]

Anyone have experience with kh310 vs kh120 with dsp kh750 subwoofer.
keen to know if it is just as resolving. And also volume difference before distorting.
many thanks.

This might be of help
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ughts-on-cea2034-and-preference-rating.18648/

 

[respice finem]

Three and a half grand (UK £) and maybe with waf-acceptable grilles, these are a bit of a bargain really when you look at the horrors available on the UK 'HiFi' market. Much as I love the brand, the ATC 25A's are rather more costly (doubkle?) and I just couldn't today afford the ott engineering for domestic use. Latest XD versions of my love-hate Harbeth SHL5's are five grand which horrified me frankly and make me angry in a way and these are nothing compared to the lavish audiophile/audiophool confections on the high end audio scene...

My line of thinking was similar. And last but not least, optimum amplification is inclusive, and the waveguides may let you escape some "sins" of your room acoustics in treble/midrange. Well, they aren't cheap by any means, but I guess more worth it than many also not cheap things.

 

[Pearljam5000]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of it being a sealed design vs a ported design?

 

[tmtomh]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of it being a sealed design vs a ported design?

Others here know more than I do, but off the top of my head:

Advantages: Better-controlled bass, smoother frequency response, no port resonances

Disadvantages: Less efficient, require more power to play at same level as a ported system; and require even more power to produce same level of bass as a ported system. However, as the 310s are active speakers with their own built-in amplification and DSP, and apparently their DSP provides sufficient bass without excess bass distortion, these theoretical disadvantages are irrelevant in the case of these speakers.

Honestly, I feel the 310s are one of the best things out there, considering the performance, sealed-enclosure design, and pricing. I'm content with my system, but if I ever upgrade and decide to ditch the amp and passives and go with active speakers, the 310s are at the very top of my list.

 

[respice finem]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of it being a sealed design vs a ported design?

Partly it's stated in the review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ver-frequency-response-measurement-png.94742/ no port means no port resonances/interference, you can place them close to a rear wall (even recommended), probably you also get a bit less distortion. The disadvantage is less bass energy than similar sized BR designs.

I'm operating mine without a sub (2m stereo triangle) without a sub, no worries about sub "mismatch" (as hearing its position, phase / group delay problems etc.). With 3m or more, I might need one. Adding the matching sub(s) adds DSP, which (via Neumann software) can also EQ the KH 310A as "satellite" speakers: https://www.thomann.de/de/neumann_kh_750_dsp.htm The sub is also not ported BTW. They offer the matching mic and software, not easy to handle AFAIK and not cheap, but good.

Sidenote (it's stated in the specs but easy to overlook): The "A" version is fully analog, not only with an analog in, so is the crossover (advanced, but still analog). As the test shows, this is no drawback, and without additional AD and DA conversions. A puristic design, so to speak.

 

[dfuller]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of it being a sealed design vs a ported design?

Long and short...
Bass reflex systems:
+ Extend lower for a given cabinet volume
+ have lower bass distortion for a given SPL
+ have higher efficiency
- (for ports) seemingly invariably have midrange pipe resonances that can audibly impact FR (if in a two-way system, this is a bigger problem; in 3-way systems it's not as much of an issue especially if the mid and tweeter are in a separate sub-cabinet)
- If the port is tuned wrong, there can be a fairly audible "overhang" in the bass frequencies
- have a much steeper roll-off in the bass (24dB/oct) below the port tuning
Acoustic suspension (i.e. "sealed") systems:
+ Have no pipe resonances or "chuffing" from a port to deal with
+ Have slower bass roll-off (12dB/oct)
+ Assuming proper design, the drivers come to a stop quicker giving the illusion of "quicker" bass response
- Are lower efficiency in the bottom end
- Are higher distortion in the bass
- roll off earlier than bass reflex systems

So... Speakers like Barefoots and KH310s get around the bottom end roll-off by a combination of long-throw drivers, clever crossover and/or DSP tuning, and lots of amplifier. In the case of speakers like Barefoot, they just add an entire second driver because as it turns out there really is no replacement for displacement. That's what makes bass reflex so genius - you (essentially) double your woofer area without adding another driver by using the rear side of the cone!

Disadvantages: Less efficient, require more power to play at same level as a ported system; and require even more power to produce same level of bass as a ported system. However, as the 310s are active speakers with their own built-in amplification and DSP, and apparently their DSP provides sufficient bass without excess bass distortion, these theoretical disadvantages are irrelevant in the case of these speakers.

The KH310s are, so far as I can tell, entirely analog in their crossovers which makes them all the more impressive.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Partly it's stated in the review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ver-frequency-response-measurement-png.94742/ no port means no port resonances/interference, you can place them close to a rear wall (even recommended), probably you also get a bit less distortion. The disadvantage is less bass energy than similar sized BR designs.

I'm operating mine without a sub (2m stereo triangle) without a sub, but with 3m or more, I probably would need one. Adding the matching sub(s) adds DSP, which (via Neumann software) can also EQ the KH 310A as "satellite" speakers: https://www.thomann.de/de/neumann_kh_750_dsp.htm The sub is also not ported BTW. They offer the matching mic and software, not easy to handle AFAIK and not cheap, but good.

Sidenote (it's stated in the specs but easy to overlook): The "A" version is fully analog, not only with an analog in, so is the crossover (advanced, but still analog). As the test shows, this is no drawback, and without additional AD and DA conversions. A puristic design, so to speak.

I hope they release a new version at the same price, it would be worth it for sure

 

[Pearljam5000]

Long and short...
Bass reflex systems:
+ Extend lower for a given cabinet volume
+ have lower bass distortion for a given SPL
+ have higher efficiency
- (for ports) seemingly invariably have midrange pipe resonances that can audibly impact FR (if in a two-way system, this is a bigger problem; in 3-way systems it's not as much of an issue especially if the mid and tweeter are in a separate sub-cabinet)
- If the port is tuned wrong, there can be a fairly audible "overhang" in the bass frequencies
- have a much steeper roll-off in the bass (24dB/oct) below the port tuning
Acoustic suspension (i.e. "sealed") systems:
+ Have no pipe resonances or "chuffing" from a port to deal with
+ Have slower bass roll-off (12dB/oct)
+ Assuming proper design, the drivers come to a stop quicker giving the illusion of "quicker" bass response
- Are lower efficiency in the bottom end
- Are higher distortion in the bass
- roll off earlier than bass reflex systems

So... Speakers like Barefoots and KH310s get around the bottom end roll-off by a combination of long-throw drivers, clever crossover and/or DSP tuning, and lots of amplifier. In the case of speakers like Barefoot, they just add an entire second driver because as it turns out there really is no replacement for displacement. That's what makes bass reflex so genius - you (essentially) double your woofer area without adding another driver by using the rear side of the cone!


The KH310s are, so far as I can tell, entirely analog in their crossovers which makes them all the more impressive.

It's interesting you mention the Barefoots because the fp01 is very similar (but with 2 woofers) and they cost about the same
Which one would you choose?

 

[respice finem]

I hope they release a new version at the same price, it would be worth it for sure

A new version of the KH 310A? Apart from at last painting it black and not mouse-gray (sorry, anthracite) and adding auto standby, I don't know what they could improve. Maybe that's why it's around for quite a few years now, the original design is from the famous predecessor Klein & Hummel https://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Klein&Hummel_O_300_D about 2005? (D version shown, I could not find the A with description).

Once you have a near-perfect design, it's hard to improve anything without spoiling something else at the same time, I guess. At some point you have to, for more or less marketing reasons, but as long as they are selling well... BTW Sennheiser, who took over K&H and renamed it to Neumann, currently has other worries...

BTW: if you contemplate buying them, I would recommend getting the grilles. Their mounting is somewhat awkward ant they're very expensive, but without them I would live in fear for the very (and I mean very) exposed midrange drivers.

 

[dfuller]

It's interesting you mention the Barefoots because the fp01 is very similar (but with 2 woofers) and they cost about the same
Which one would you choose?

that really depends on your listening position. The barefoots are a good deal narrower in the top octave than the Neumann's which may not be ideal in midfield or farfield listening, but they have just hilarious low end output for their size owing to the two bananas high xmax woofers (±9.5mm!) and massive amounts of amp per speaker.

 

[Newman]

The KH310 has a couple of Hz deeper bass extension and, where I live, the fp01 costs 30% more. The bass power only matters if the KH310 actually runs out of steam in your room.

 

[dfuller]

The KH310 has a couple of Hz deeper bass extension and, where I live, the fp01 costs 30% more. The bass power only matters if the KH310 actually runs out of steam in your room.

Ah, but it doesn't really - it's very spl limited in the bottom end. The KH310 can only stay below 1% distortion in that bottom 15-20hz of its range at low levels (~85dB SPL) and distortion rises dramatically above that. Not an issue if you cross over with subs (which you should be doing if you really need full-range response!) but something to be mindful of.

Unfortunately I have yet to see any distortion figures on the FP01s, but rumor has it the woofers are a tweaked version of the Peerless SLS 830667.