• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Newbie question about Amp/Dac + Headphone combo

Zaknar

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2021
Messages
3
Likes
0
Hello everyone,

I'm new here and to the audiophile community and I would like to ask some questions if that's alright with you.

I envisage putting a foot into this world and I would like to get some advice from you about a Amp/Dac + Headphone combo.

Before I talk about the setup I have in sight, I precise that the total budget for the dac/amp + headphone is 500-600€.

In terms of utilization, I like to listen to a variety of music but the styles I listen to the most are :
  • Classical music
  • Epic orchestral music
  • Rock/Metal
  • Folk music with traditionnal instrument (hurdy gurdy for exemple)
I tried to do some research on the internet and I was thinking about getting the combo Schiit Magni Heresy + Modi 3+.

For the headphones I was quite incertain, I read that the Senheiser HD 600/650/660s was a beast in his price range but was lacking in term of bass (I don't like the bass to be all mashed up and foggy but I like some depth in it) and I read that the Hifiman Sundara had a better profile in term of bass.

What do you think about all of this ?

I would like to thank you for the read and I'll take any advice :)

Best regards,
 

3125b

Major Contributor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,352
Likes
2,204
Location
Germany
The Schiit stack is a good choice. In Europe a Topping L30 and E30 stack might be the better option though,, if you buy one from an authorized reseller in a while you should get the 210X revision of the L30.

Anyway, of the Sennheisers I got the HD 600, it's a little bit brighter than the HD 650 and the cheapest of the bunch. The 660S is more expensive and comes with a balanced cable that you don't need, in terms of FR I think it's the worst of them (but not bad by any means, can definitely be used without EQ).
I find the pricing of all of them a little bit high for the look and feel, but they sure sound good and can last a long time. My HD600 appears to be about 20 years old wich I would have never guessed from the condition it's in. If you want one headphone without any messing around as a daily driver for years to come, the HD 600/650/660S/6XX is a good choice. The HD 560S is a little bit cheaper of an option marking the high end of their Chinese made HD 500 pattern of wich I own two different models (the old 555 and a newer 569), not a bad choice either.
The Sundara is a good headphone in its own right though, I liked it a lot when I auditioned it a while back. The tuning is fairly close to Harman too, just make sure get a new one with the revised pads for 2020. However HiFiMAN is not exactly known for reliability, I'm not sure how the Sundara stacks up, I have heard some complaints, but am not sure how much that really means.
You should also take a look at the Audio-Technica ATH-R70X. It's fairly close to the same tuning as well, I have never heard it myself though.
One important thing to consider with any headphone is fit. The Sundara and the R70X have fairly small, round earcups, the HD 600 has small to medium sized oval cups. Unfortunately trying them currently means ordering and sending back, so you don't get to sample all that many.
And of course you can EQ just about any headphone to taste. However I don't think that means buying one that you don't like without makes much sense.
Here is a comparison of the HD 600, 650 and 660S: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd660s/ (flat plate measurement, so only comparable to each other and not to GRAS etc. systems).
And here are some additional measurements and EQ-curves: https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets
 
Last edited:

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
377
Hello everyone,

I'm new here and to the audiophile community and I would like to ask some questions if that's alright with you.

I envisage putting a foot into this world and I would like to get some advice from you about a Amp/Dac + Headphone combo.

Before I talk about the setup I have in sight, I precise that the total budget for the dac/amp + headphone is 500-600€.

In terms of utilization, I like to listen to a variety of music but the styles I listen to the most are :
  • Classical music
  • Epic orchestral music
  • Rock/Metal
  • Folk music with traditionnal instrument (hurdy gurdy for exemple)
I tried to do some research on the internet and I was thinking about getting the combo Schiit Magni Heresy + Modi 3+.

For the headphones I was quite incertain, I read that the Senheiser HD 600/650/660s was a beast in his price range but was lacking in term of bass (I don't like the bass to be all mashed up and foggy but I like some depth in it) and I read that the Hifiman Sundara had a better profile in term of bass.

What do you think about all of this ?

I would like to thank you for the read and I'll take any advice :)

Best regards,
I'd go with a standard Schiit/Topping/etc stack of your choice, and a Dan Clark Audio (formerly Mr Speakers) Aeon RT for $500. It's a genuine high end planar at a very good price. The best other choice in the sub $500 range is the standard Sennheiser/Drop. 6xx (a cheaper version of the Sennheiser 650).

Schiit or Topping or w/e won't make too much of a difference. Ten years ago head fi wasn't a category. Schiit started selling value oriented products and the market took off. Now there are many options, and so much demand for the products no company can stay in stock. So, if you're in Europe, you may pay a premium if you insist on being Schiit on. Might make more sense to Topping off, for now.
 
OP
Z

Zaknar

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2021
Messages
3
Likes
0
Before replying, I would like to thank for the suggestion and advice.

I take note for the Schiit/Topping and I will likely go for the Topping to keep it close to my budget.

Unfortunately, I can't go for the Aeon RT because that would be getting too much expensive (750+ € in total).

I thank you for your concern about the HiFiMAN Sundara and, indeed, I read a lot of ppl had a concern about it too.

I found some post stating that the build quality of the Audio-Technica ATH-R70X was quite lacking too and the hinges were loosening up after only a few months. What is your take on this ?

So in this 300€~ range the best I can get is Audio-Technica ATH-R70X or Senheiser HD 600/650 ?

Again, thanks for the help :)
 

3125b

Major Contributor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,352
Likes
2,204
Location
Germany
What is your take on this ?
I simply don't know. It seems to be a fairly rare headphone, replacement parts are very hard if not impossible to come by, original earpads don't seem to be available either. I asked Audio-Technicas support a while back and didn't really get an answer. Again, not making any definitive statements here based on the little bit I know for sure, but do look into that if you are considering them.

For the HD 600 you can get all manner of parts and they seem to be easy enough to work on, many people have done tons of mods and all that if you are interested - I'm not really into that myself.

Under 200€ there would be the HE-400i 2020 (not too dissimilar to the Sundara though with a worse factory tuning) and of course the all time favorites Beyerdynamic DT-880 ('d recommend the regular Edition model, not the Black or the Pro, all of them are long-lasting and serviceable) and AKG K702 (or 612 Pro), at 230€ there is the K712 Pro. Have a look at the measurements, some of them are fairly far from the Harman Target (disregarding the elevated base resopnse for these open back headphones anyway). And then there is the Philips Fidelio X2HR, good factory tuning and currently on amazon.de (you are from Germany, right?) for 140€ wich is not too bad. Unfortunately there aren't parts available for that one either. Don't get the X3, it's a clear step back.
 

Raindog123

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
1,599
Likes
3,554
Location
Melbourne, FL, USA
Just my $0.02, I have new (2020) HifiMan HE400i's for over half-year now. Listen them extensively - sitting, rolling in bed, even falling asleep... HifiMan seem to fixed the headband issue, and the overall quality/durability is very reasonable for the price.
 

Bob-23

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
425
Likes
379
Location
Berlin, Germany
So in this 300€~ range the best I can get is Audio-Technica ATH-R70X or Senheiser HD 600/650 ?
Both of these phones are not great in soundstage - I own the HD600: it's a good headphone, never wrong to have it in a collection.

But if wide soundstage is important to you - for some people it doesn't matter, others don't even perceive it - I'd rather follow 3125b's hints with regard to the K702 or X2HR: a lot of open, wide soundstage for nowadays little money (they once were much more expensive). The former with a wider soundstage than the latter, and with somehow better resolution (as has the HD600), the latter with a beautiful, open, deep soundstage and more 'body' and 'punch'. I love soundstage in headphones, and I must say, at the moment I prefer the X2HR even though it's not exactely as wide as the K702's. Bass goes deeper on the X2HR, but may, depending on the record, sometimes be a bit muddy (but not really overly so). K702's bass has less substance but it's a clean good bass.

X2HR can be used completely without eq. K702 may need some substantial treble reduction, depending on the recording and the instruments involved, e.g. with Garbarek's or Coltran's sopran sax (which is also - to a lesser degree - the case with the HD600).

Unfortunately there aren't parts available for that one either.
Have you see these Dekoni-pads, made for the X2HR, with the genuin snap mechanism?
Unfortunately, frequency response is not really that convincing - though the stronger bass response may be relatively easy eq'able, as we have frequency response measured by Dekoni:


1615910042700.png

https://dekoniaudio.com/product/dek...t-ear-pads-for-philips-fidelio-x2-headphones/

Don't get the X3, it's a clear step back.
I agree.
 

3125b

Major Contributor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,352
Likes
2,204
Location
Germany
Unfortunately, frequency response is not really that convincing
Unfortunately that is the case with so many 3rd party replacement pads - though it seems to affect beathable pads more than airtight ones.
So the manufacturer not selling replacement pads is always a big flaw in my book since you'll never be able to get the same sound back the headphone had originally.

I honestly don't know what they were thinking. The bass response was one of the big plusses of the X2 compared to other open-back headphones, they could have worked on the treble a bit and be done with it, instead they threw the good part of the X2 overboard, implemented an Ikea-inspired design and called it the X3.

Both of these phones are not great in soundstage
I don't necessarily agree. The HD 600 has a different presentation that the K702 for sure, not as spacious, but better imaging, at least for me. Of course that depends on the listeners ears, hard to generalize really. For me it's among the better headphones without angled drivers. Of course nowhere near my Elear, but not bad.
 
Last edited:

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
377
Before replying, I would like to thank for the suggestion and advice.

I take note for the Schiit/Topping and I will likely go for the Topping to keep it close to my budget.

Unfortunately, I can't go for the Aeon RT because that would be getting too much expensive (750+ € in total).

I thank you for your concern about the HiFiMAN Sundara and, indeed, I read a lot of ppl had a concern about it too.

I found some post stating that the build quality of the Audio-Technica ATH-R70X was quite lacking too and the hinges were loosening up after only a few months. What is your take on this ?

So in this 300€~ range the best I can get is Audio-Technica ATH-R70X or Senheiser HD 600/650 ?

Again, thanks for the help :)
Keep in mind dollars are 1.2 per euro, or seem to be every time I buy from you guys. So $500 us is more like EU400 but of course VAT, Shipping, etc. Depends. You want bass? What kind of music? There are a lot of headphones, without more info I say Senn/Drop 6xx. For acoustic/chamber folk/classical I say Grado. Not flat or bassy, and treble is a bit harsh on some recordings, but nice for that kind of music. For rock too, though I prefer the DCA or maybe a Shure 846 or something?
 

don'ttrustauthority

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
679
Likes
377
This is what I bought, they still have it. $650 US for a Schiit Hel and a Aeon RT. They work well together, though eventually a more powerful amp would be desired. The dac is the AKM 4490, so it's like a Modi without the extra inputs.

Hel Yeah! Gaming and Home Office Bundle (danclarkaudio.com)

It's 546 euros. This is your choice. Listen to Jason Stoddard, the amp guy at Schiit: it's better to spend the majority of your money on speakers and headphones. Not amps or dacs. Amps and dacs pretty much all sound the same.

A good dac/amp is only useful if you have really good headphones. So compromise on the Hel and buy the Aeon RT as a long term purchase you wont have to replace until you're ready to spend $1500 or more on headphones.
 
OP
Z

Zaknar

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2021
Messages
3
Likes
0
Again, thank you so much for the suggestion.

I began to search about the Aeon RT and I found this one on Drop (https://drop.com/buy/drop-dan-clark-audio-aeon-open-x/talk).

What is the difference between the "normal" Aeon RT and the one on Drop (if any) ?

This is what I bought, they still have it. $650 US for a Schiit Hel and a Aeon RT. They work well together, though eventually a more powerful amp would be desired. The dac is the AKM 4490, so it's like a Modi without the extra inputs.

Hel Yeah! Gaming and Home Office Bundle (danclarkaudio.com)

It's 546 euros. This is your choice. Listen to Jason Stoddard, the amp guy at Schiit: it's better to spend the majority of your money on speakers and headphones. Not amps or dacs. Amps and dacs pretty much all sound the same.

A good dac/amp is only useful if you have really good headphones. So compromise on the Hel and buy the Aeon RT as a long term purchase you wont have to replace until you're ready to spend $1500 or more on headphones.

To reply to this comment, I'll link below some exemples of what I listen to :

Epic music :


Folklore/Medieval music :


Ost :


Classical :


Piano :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_htactgdfTM

Some Rap (Rap is the style I listen to the least though) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGGWhOUYObc

Taking all of this into account, is the combo Aeon RT + Schiit Hel still good ?
 
Last edited:

Gadget Goober

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 7, 2021
Messages
36
Likes
37
Location
The 11th hour on the 12th of never, lost in space.
For what it's worth, I've gone through many "budget" setups for friends of mine, and I find for the price, it's hard to beat a Fiio M7 or M11 DAP/DAC, A Loxjie P20 Balanced Amp (Or Magni, mine went up in smoke and died within 2 weeks, I have it on video! defective... / or Magnius, if you wanna spend an extra $100), and a nice set of 6xx's or Hifiman he400i's. I hear the forum loves Topping, but I haven't personally heard them yet, so I can't speak.

This totals between $400usd-ish to $700usd-ish, and the bonus is that you get a strong portable player as well, Android based, with app support. Plus, for on the go listening, the balanced out on the M11 will STRONGLY help with the volume level on the HE400i's, with a balanced cable for it. Believe me, they don't get as loud as I want on single ended / common ground. (I'm also partial to the Sivga Sv-004, chi-fi as it may be... can't help it.)

Just my 2 cents! Good luck on your journey! It took me several tries to come up with my "dream team". I don't abuse it, but Amazon returns are your friend lol

Seriously though, I was very skeptical, but I ordered one on a whim for my office, and the Loxjie P20, for $99, with balanced in and out, blew me away for the price.
Dare I say, a better deal than the Schiit Magni I have, that again, smoked and died only 2 weeks in. (I have a video, thankfully, and it's a known issue. Schiit did refund me, and I instead went with a Magnius. I decided not to post the video, although I may if the issue keeps up - many others have reported this, so beware. (Google "Schiit Magni smoke / fire" - It was running stock, with it's own power supply, in light listening conditions.)
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom