Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[hardisj]

random thought but...

I listened to these last night a bit more. Had my apple library on shuffle. Came across a few tracks I hadn't heard in a while. My goodness, do these speakers sound fantastic. And this made me think to myself... it's going to be hard to subjectively review speakers going forward after having heard these. I was enthralled with the Revel F226Be. But these speakers are better in pretty much every facet. I have a set of the JBL HDI-3800 up for review and they are awesome speakers in their own right. But, again, the performance DD8c is hard to forget. I've been spoiled. LOL

And, yes, of course, I will continue to subjectively review speakers. And I will do so within their own merits and limitations. Certainly, reviewing a $200 set of bookshelf speakers implies limitations in performance that should not necessarily be compared against something like the DD8c. My point is simply: having heard "the next best thing" with these speakers is going to make it awful hard for anything else to hold a candle. But, then again, most of the speakers I review are nowhere near the cost of these.

 

[hardisj]

I will try reaching out to the folks at Purifi and see if they might be willing to entertain the notion of sending me a loaner set to test if you guys want. Maybe with enough “likes”, I can show them this post so they know people are interested in me testing it. I don’t want to ask just for the sake of it.

Okay. I kicked off some discussion through some contacts I have. We will see if me getting a loaner pair to review will come to fruition. I definitely don't want to take the stance of making this a "comparison" review and that's why I asked about how the Kii Three was intended to be used. I try to not directly compare products and tend to leave that up to the data to tell that particular story. There are things outside of the data and my subjective hearing as well that factor in to purchase designs such as size, aesthetic and (of course) cost.

 

[hardisj]

I mentioned in my video review of these speakers (I'm gonna guess the majority of you guys didn't watch it since you've already seen the data) that if there were any questions about my experience with these speakers that I might try to do a follow-on to my review via YouTube and go live, taking questions.

Are any of you interested in that or do you think I've addressed your questions in this review, or that others have? If there's no need then I won't waste my time. But if there is any discussion to be had "after the fact" that you might benefit from, I don't mind taking 30 minutes maybe this weekend to do a little live Q&A. LMK.

 

[pma]

John,

Any plans to get the Klippel acoustic field scanner in the future?

The cost of entry seems low, compared to how much some audiophile components cost.

I’ve always enjoyed Stereophile since 1995; for the technical measurements and interpretation, as well as the human subjective interpretation.

Stereophile, in 2021, is NOT a source of SOTA (state of the art) technical information. I agree that it was, by some 2010. It is probably impossible for the printed magazine and its online copy to make so, however they probably have different goals. And they live from advertisement, so the assessment is usually written deep below the lines, even in case of @John Atkinson .

 

[Dialectic]

Okay. I kicked off some discussion through some contacts I have. We will see if me getting a loaner pair to review will come to fruition. I definitely don't want to take the stance of making this a "comparison" review and that's why I asked about how the Kii Three was intended to be used. I try to not directly compare products and tend to leave that up to the data to tell that particular story. There are things outside of the data and my subjective hearing as well that factor in to purchase designs such as size, aesthetic and (of course) cost.

Be careful. The last time someone took comparative measurements of the Kiis and 8Cs, there was quite a bit of drama...

 

[fredoamigo]

they are systematically compared and to my knowledge they are the most measured, commented and tested speakers in the history of audio (especially the 8C) it's not one more rewiews that will make a drama.

but the crossing of 2 klippel measures of speakers of the same philosophy by the same tester in the same protocol would be very interesting ...indeed

 

[Ron Texas]

D&D cracked the code. The only possible hang up is this product is from a small company and has lots of proprietary electronics inside.

 

[hardisj]

The last time someone took comparative measurements of the Kiis and 8Cs, there was quite a bit of drama...

I was not aware of that. Did that happen here? I'd like to read what the fuss was about.

Regardless, my data is always taken in the same manner. Any comparisons are done as a byproduct of the data; not necessarily the intent of me providing it. That's why I rarely do any direct comparisons. The caveat would be for products that are competing for the exact same use/size/etc.

 

[Frank Dernie]

That said, I currently know little about the Kii 3 and its place in the market. Is it a direct competitor of the DD8c? Or is there enough difference between the two - in design - that they aren’t entirely the same?

AFAIK the biggest difference is that the lateral cancelling wave is active in the Kii compared to the passive slots in the 8C but the mid driver is smaller so max loudness still may not be more.

 

[mitchco]

I took comparative in-room measurements of both the Kii THREE and D&D 8c using nothing more than their on-board eq:

Zoomed in from 1 kHz on up:

As Martijn, the designer of the 8c says, "I've had the Kii's and the 8c's side by side in my living room for a while. The Kii's too are remarkably good speakers. With just some subtle EQ the two could be made to sound very similar on most program material - to the extent that I might not be able to distinguish them in a proper blind test. I'm still amazed sometimes by the extent to which differences in sound can be explained by frequency response."

Given the measurements above and have listened to the speakers side by side myself, I would have to agree. With outboard software DSP, one could make the frequency response of both speakers virtually identical with an even tighter tolerance than shown above.

Subjectively, I did notice a subtle audible difference in the quality of sound between the two speakers. The "perceived" difference I heard between the two systems I have a hard time trying to qualify and quantify what it is, but to my ears, it is there. I don't know objectively what it is, but the Kii's sound "dryer" than the 8c's to my ears. It is hard to describe. The 8c's sound familiar to me compared to other speakers, whereas the Kii's do not sound like any other speaker I have heard. The 8c's have slamming dual 8" subwoofers that seem just slightly under damped to give them that thump whereas the Kii's sound over damped with no sound to them at all. I wonder if it is because of Bruno's current feedback loop... Whatever the difference, it is quite small and could not say if I could reliably pass a blind test. Most others in the pro sound market that have made comparisons have similar comments.

Both speakers represent the SOTA for their size.

 

[hardisj]

Thanks for that information @mitchco

 

[Lorenzo74]

I will try reaching out to the folks at Purifi and see if they might be willing to entertain the notion of sending me a loaner set to test if you guys want. Maybe with enough “likes”, I can show them this post so they know people are interested in me testing it. I don’t want to ask just for the sake of it.

That said, I currently know little about the Kii 3 and its place in the market. Is it a direct competitor of the DD8c? Or is there enough difference between the two - in design - that they aren’t entirely the same?

hi @hardisj, for your info Kii three is the brainchild of @Bruno Putzeys (inventor of UcD, Hypex and Purifi class D amps), CTO of the German Company Kii audio. you might have seen below video since I've already posted.

go to 8:00 and

Actually B. Putzeys is the teammate of your recent guest Lars Risbo. About - PURIFI (purifi-audio.com) now could you guess why a 4" and a 6.5"... ?

Kii three landed on this planet from another solar system (as they say at NASA ) about 6 years ago.
they got many rave reviews since then but with the exception of Audio.de and Stereophile, few were supported by a decent set of objective measurements. none by a klippel, so it is your turn. Kii Audio ::: press , Kii Audio Three loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

D&D 8C landed later but has similar concept at least from 100Hz up. D&D implement the constant horizontal dispersion by passive leakage of sound pressure behind the front woofer.

the Kii three has ACTIVE cardioid dispersion control from 50Hz up by leveraging two 6.5 in the back, two 6.5 on the side and a 4 inch on the front . the Xover is set to 1.5 kHz and the tweeter, a seas magnesium dome with patented DXT waveguide that narrow dispersion above 2k and wide it above 10kHz... --> DSP, 6 DACs, 6x250W hypex amp 6 drivers ... synthetic sealed enclosure.

if ASR readers would like to see Erin enjoying setting up a Kii three (+BXT?) on the Klippel Stand pls press like to Erin's review (and why not also here ..)
Erin, pls. pls. pls. reach out the Germans Kii Audio ::: team they undoubtfully knows about you. I believe they would love to see their flagship monitor on your Klippel laser stand.
Stay healthy, stay safe
my best
L.

 

[Purité Audio]

Be careful. The last time someone took comparative measurements of the Kiis and 8Cs, there was quite a bit of drama...

I happen to know for a fact that, that person is not going to repeat that any time soon.
Keith

 

[hardisj]

Erin, pls. pls. pls. reach out the Germans Kii Audio ::: team they undoubtfully knows about you. I believe they would love to see their flagship monitor on your Klippel laser stand.

Well, I reached out to Lars a couple hours ago. Don't wanna say too much because I don't want to over-promise and under-deliver. But I am hopeful.

 

[Thomas savage]

FWIW, I pegged about 105dB with music without noticing any distortion or mechanical issues. That's at 4m listening distance.

View attachment 116432

Altered beasts !

Yes there's distortion down low , form factor pay off , no free lunch. Not a issue for 90% of users id guess .

Still a sub , 2 or 4 ..

I could actually mount mine in the ceiling ha ha

 

[Thomas savage]

D&D cracked the code. The only possible hang up is this product is from a small company and has lots of proprietary electronics inside.

Yes , maybe leave it 5 years or 10.. or be brave !

 

[Absolute]

Well, I reached out to Lars a couple hours ago. Don't wanna say too much because I don't want to over-promise and under-deliver. But I am hopeful.

Oh, you're knocking on the back door? Sneaky!

I have to say, as a previous happy owner, that the Kiis are excellent speakers and have some excellent people there when it comes to support also. The biggest issue for them atm is a huge backlog, so the best would be to get somebody who already own it to send it to you.

Or send them the Klippel. Whatever sinks your ship.

 

[kma100]

random thought but...

I listened to these last night a bit more. Had my apple library on shuffle. Came across a few tracks I hadn't heard in a while. My goodness, do these speakers sound fantastic. And this made me think to myself... it's going to be hard to subjectively review speakers going forward after having heard these. I was enthralled with the Revel F226Be. But these speakers are better in pretty much every facet. I have a set of the JBL HDI-3800 up for review and they are awesome speakers in their own right. But, again, the performance DD8c is hard to forget. I've been spoiled. LOL

And, yes, of course, I will continue to subjectively review speakers. And I will do so within their own merits and limitations. Certainly, reviewing a $200 set of bookshelf speakers implies limitations in performance that should not necessarily be compared against something like the DD8c. My point is simply: having heard "the next best thing" with these speakers is going to make it awful hard for anything else to hold a candle. But, then again, most of the speakers I review are nowhere near the cost of these.

Will you share some of your subjective comments, along with the songs picked? Those are always interesting to read.

 

[hardisj]

Will you share some of your subjective comments, along with the songs picked? Those are always interesting to read.

I discussed the subjective stuff in my video review. Don't think I mentioned specific songs (trying to keep the review as short as possible was hard enough already). I have had these for quite a while now, though, and have listened to all sorts of music and watched movies/TV through them.

 

[kma100]

I discussed the subjective stuff in my video review. Don't think I mentioned specific songs (trying to keep the review as short as possible was hard enough already). I have had these for quite a while now, though, and have listened to all sorts of music and watched movies/TV through them.

Fair point - thanks!