March Audio Sointuva Speaker

[March Audio]

That's unfortunate. I have a deep rooted hatred for aluminum dome tweeters. I am sure it's due to the brightness of the Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v3's I once owned. They were extremely fatiguing. Measurements from Stereophile:

My reference track for tweeters is I Love You by Sarah McLachlan:

IME I have found the track virtually unlistenable on speakers with aluminum domes. (It's also a good track for bass extension.)

I find silk and beryllium domes much less fatiguing. This song is wonderful on a good speaker / headphones. I'd love a chance to hear the Sointuva but, alas, Albany, WA is a loooong way away from southwest Florida.

Martin

Hi @Martin

From the looks of the measurements you posted there that tweeter may be suffering some break up at the top of the audible range plus it has a rising response from about 7kHz so its possibly not a good example of the breed or a good implementation. Your response of "fatiguing" doesn't really surprise me from a superficial eyeballing of the data.

I would suggest not getting hung up on the material. Assuming the tweeter doesn't have fundamental issues then overall implementation and integration of the drivers is more important. I can assure you that it's possible to make a soft dome sound fatiguing if you get things wrong

 

[tmtomh]

Yep you are right I will update it tomorrow to indicate 1 pair, plus put a note that they can be purchased individually (centre speakers)

Wait, so the $3495US price is the per-pair price? I thought that was the per-speaker prices. Wow - fantastic!

 

[pjug]

Wait, so the $3495US price is the per-pair price? I thought that was the per-speaker prices. Wow - fantastic!

Note that the wood adds a few hundred dollars (reasonable, of course). I say this because I didn't notice which I was pricing at first glance.

 

[bluefuzz]

The properties of the wood and its application were discussed at length with our wood machining supplier.

Well, as I said, I hope you, and they, are right ... ;-)

 

[tmtomh]

Note that the wood adds a few hundred dollars (reasonable, of course). I say this because I didn't notice which I was pricing at first glance.

I did notice that, thanks. I'm boring that way - I like my speakers black so they visually fade into the background.

 

[q3cpma]

passive radiators are used to on the rear of the speaker (...). They provide the tightness of bass associated with closed boxes with the added extension of ported designs.

Isn't this "a bit" deceptive misleading? As far as group delay and CSD go, passive radiators and ports are the same, right?

This extended response negates the need for a sub woofer when used with music.

Same, negate is quite strong.

Otherwise, quite nice. I guess that's great performance in the realm of passive speakers without waveguide.

 

[ctrl]

passive radiators are used to on the rear of the speaker (...). They provide the tightness of bass associated with closed boxes with the added extension of ported designs.

Isn't this "a bit" deceptive? As far as group delay and CSD go, passive radiators and ports are the same, right?

In fact, if tuned comparably, the speaker with PR will have a greater group delay than the speaker with BR, since the PR usually slopes down with higher order in the frequency response.

The CSD should also be somewhat worse with PR than with BR, since the mass-spring system (mass=air mass in port, spring=air buffer in the cabinet) in the BR concept consists of "moving air" and this should decay faster than a mechanical cone (my speculation).

UPDATE: The last paragraph does not sound logical

 

[MZKM]

In fact, if tuned comparably, the speaker with PR will have a greater group delay than the speaker with BR, since the PR usually slopes down with higher order in the frequency response.

The CSD should also be somewhat worse with PR than with BR, since the mass-spring system (mass=air mass in port, spring=air buffer in the cabinet) in the BR concept consists of "moving air" and this should decay faster than a mechanical cone (my speculation).

In terms of roll-off, don‘t PR designs roll-off at 18dB/oct? So a middle-ground between the 12dB/oct of a sealed speaker and the 24dB/oct of a ported speaker?

 

[tmtomh]

Isn't this "a bit" deceptive? As far as group delay and CSD go, passive radiators and ports are the same, right?

Same, negate is quite strong.

Otherwise, quite nice. I guess that's great performance in the realm of passive speakers without waveguide.

One could say your own critique is a bit strong, and if not exactly a bit deceptive, then perhaps a bit narrow or misleading, since a port and a PR are the same in some respects and not in others, yes?

 

[ctrl]

In terms of roll-off, don‘t PR designs roll-off at 18dB/oct? So a middle-ground between the 12dB/oct of a sealed speaker and the 24dB/oct of a ported speaker?

Due to the additional spring stiffness of the PR, there are additional zeros which result in a steeper frequency response curve.

 

[q3cpma]

One could say your own critique is a bit strong, and if not exactly a bit deceptive, then perhaps a bit narrow or misleading, since a port and a PR are the same in some respects and not in others, yes?

Yes, indeed. I had "misleading" in mind, first.

 

[q3cpma]

In terms of roll-off, don‘t PR designs roll-off at 18dB/oct? So a middle-ground between the 12dB/oct of a sealed speaker and the 24dB/oct of a ported speaker?

Do they? I thought they worked the exact same way a BR port did, except that it isn't the air in the port resonating, but the driver. What I don't know, though, is what happens under the tuning frequency: if my faint intuition that the BR problems (active driver flapping without air resistance) aren't here is correct, there's no need for a high pass filter which does affect the roll-off.

 

[ctrl]

What I don't know, though, is what happens under the tuning frequency: if my faint intuition that the BR problems (active driver flapping without air resistance) aren't here is correct, there's no need for a high pass filter which does affect the roll-off.

Cone excursion with PR below the tuning frequency is slightly less than with BR, but still significantly greater than with CB.

Compare the frequency response of the woofer cones when using BR (blue) and PR (brown) from post#350, then it becomes clear that the excursion is only slightly lower.

 

[AudioJester]

Hi @Thomas savage
I will continue to contribute to ASR occasionally within the constraints that I am allowed to

We won't be sending a pair to ASR for review as I have some fundamental disagreements with Amirs subjective assessment methods. The measurements won't be significantly differnt to our own.

Lol, so do you have disagreements with these subjective impressions

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sma-prototype-unscientific-impressions.18242/

If something is subjective, how can you disagree? While not necessarily applicable to others, can subjective be wrong?

Sorry, just trying to understand the rationale here. For years you have been berating/abusing others for not sending their products to Amir to measure and now...???

 

[Lorenzo74]

o0ohh around about 1.5kHz

Good job!
easy to do excellent speakers when you source the best woofer and the best tweeter.
what about a 3 way with purifi 4” , viawave tweeted in a 2.1 system?

question to you:
between bliesma 25 and 34, why did you choose 34? For the lower Xover?

what about a 3 way, maybe with puriti 4”...
bliesma 25 or you‘ll keep the 34? (In this case why not a Viawave with waveguide with its 0.01grams moving mass.)

go ahead and start using DSP, it’s like ABS in vehicle safety. You cannot do with passive coils and caps what a DSP can easily do.

best
Lorenzo

 

[March Audio]

Isn't this "a bit" deceptive misleading? As far as group delay and CSD go, passive radiators and ports are the same, right?

Same, negate is quite strong.

Otherwise, quite nice. I guess that's great performance in the realm of passive speakers without waveguide.

I have personally always had a preference for the "tighter" sound of closed boxes. Unfortunately they inevitably have less extension. Many ported speakers to my ears sound "loose" and uncontrolled. The Sointuvas combination of the Purifi woofer and PRs sounds more like a closed box in this respect so not misleading at all.

For music I wouldn't use a sub with these, well certainly a single sub anyway. They go deep with very low distortion.

 

[March Audio]

Well, as I said, I hope you, and they, are right ... ;-)

I have absolutely no concerns in this respect

 

[March Audio]

Lol, so do you have disagreements with these subjective impressions

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sma-prototype-unscientific-impressions.18242/

If something is subjective, how can you disagree? While not necessarily applicable to others, can subjective be wrong?

Sorry, just trying to understand the rationale here. For years you have been berating/abusing others for not sending their products to Amir to measure and now...???

Sorry not going to get into your obvious provocation LOL. It's erroneous for a number of reasons, but yes I do disagree with Amirs methods (as have others) regarding his subjective evaluations in a purported scientific review context.
It should be fine for adults to have differing opinions even on, maybe especially upon scientific methods.

I wont comment any further on that.

 

[March Audio]

Good job!
easy to do excellent speakers when you source the best woofer and the best tweeter.
what about a 3 way with purifi 4” , viawave tweeted in a 2.1 system?

question to you:
between bliesma 25 and 34, why did you choose 34? For the lower Xover?

what about a 3 way, maybe with puriti 4”...
bliesma 25 or you‘ll keep the 34? (In this case why not a Viawave with waveguide with its 0.01grams moving mass.)

go ahead and start using DSP, it’s like ABS in vehicle safety. You cannot do with passive coils and caps what a DSP can easily do.

best
Lorenzo

Oh there are plenty of challenges to overcome even with high quality drivers

Thank you

A waveguide could improve the consistency of the measured dispersion 3 to 5kHz but its interesting to note that with the subjective evaluation that's been performed in different rooms with various listeners no-ones commented on any perceived deficiency in this area.

There are many possibilities to consider for a different model, dsp active is probably the next step.

 

[jonm42]

Oh there are plenty of challenges to overcome even with high quality drivers

A waveguide could improve the consistency of the measured dispersion 3 to 5kHz but its interesting to note that with the subjective evaluation that's been performed in different rooms with various listeners no-ones commented on any perceived deficiency in this area.

There are many possibilities to consider for a different model, dsp active is probably the next step.

A Purifi driven speaker with Purifi amps on board? Oh my.