CEntrance Hifi-M8 V2 Review (DAC and headphone amplifier)

[Hemi-Demon]

Very concise, but not very accurate. Doesn't matter. Most importantly, Amir acknowledged he didn't understand what the product was for. Then he had driver issues and stopped his test.

We agree THD is not bad, but could be better. We also maintain there is more to the product than THD. But we also observed that's not the argument worth discussing in this thread. So we simply moved on. We respect every review site online and only have so much time on our hands.

In summary, we don't make a desktop amp. There are many great desktop amps with much better specs (power is questionable, but not THD). But when it comes to portable amps, HiFi-M8 is state of the art. Do not compare it with desktop amps. Do compare it with other portable amps, and move beyond the THD (If you can). Consider if the product does the job for the customer it was intended to do. Not all products are designed to do the same thing.

On a lighter note, and I know there are a lot of very serious people here, who spend their time seriously listening to serious music -- we cannot wait until ASR starts measuring guitar amps. That might singlehandedly cancel rock-and-roll!

In conclusion, we respect this community and its approach. It is not 100% aligned with our world view, but we are willing to listen and learn. We may pop in here every once in a while, but don't get upset if we prioritize our customers (sales are keeping us busy, despite what the tone of this thread might suggest). Peace, Love and Understanding to all! Above all, stay healthy and positive. The world needs that now, more than ever!

This is a pretty disingenuous response. Amir measured and identified a fault in the design (relative to other portable ak4493 based devices), before you happened to remember why, due to the volume module. That's engineering, not the fault of the technical review. You still haven't provided the updated driver that would allow for more testing? He gave the device high praise for the excellent power, and excellent channel matching. I would have liked to see results (output and noise) in low gain mode, so on that point, I agree with you.

No need to try and soft belittle the review though, since the data basically matches your own spec sheet. I like your products, but this is just not a cool marketing tactic.

Also did the owner send this device back for a replacement, since you had some board issues during production? Also for $800, you could have sprung for the MQA and LDAC certifications, and left out the leds.

To be fair though, the subjective reviews are pretty universally positive, so maybe objective reviews don't drive the business part of audio.

 

[Taddpole]

To be fair though, the subjective reviews are pretty universally positive

Often are once you get to a certain price point regardless of quality

 

[elira]

Very concise, but not very accurate. Doesn't matter. Most importantly, Amir acknowledged he didn't understand what the product was for. Then he had driver issues and stopped his test.

We agree THD is not bad, but could be better. We also maintain there is more to the product than THD. But we also observed that's not the argument worth discussing in this thread. So we simply moved on. We respect every review site online and only have so much time on our hands.

In summary, we don't make a desktop amp. There are many great desktop amps with much better specs (power is questionable, but not THD). But when it comes to portable amps, HiFi-M8 is state of the art. Do not compare it with desktop amps. Do compare it with other portable amps, and move beyond the THD (If you can). Consider if the product does the job for the customer it was intended to do. Not all products are designed to do the same thing.

On a lighter note, and I know there are a lot of very serious people here, who spend their time seriously listening to serious music -- we cannot wait until ASR starts measuring guitar amps. That might singlehandedly cancel rock-and-roll!

In conclusion, we respect this community and its approach. It is not 100% aligned with our world view, but we are willing to listen and learn. We may pop in here every once in a while, but don't get upset if we prioritize our customers (sales are keeping us busy, despite what the tone of this thread might suggest). Peace, Love and Understanding to all! Above all, stay healthy and positive. The world needs that now, more than ever!

May I ask you, which part of my post is inaccurate?

I can break it down for you:

• "at the end CEntrance just acknowledged Amir's measurements were correct, that their measurements were measuring a different thing" for days (maybe weeks) you claimed that Amir's measurements didn't match your own, but you didn't post your own. When you posted something, you realized your measurements were measuring a different thing so they couldn't be compared to Amir's. And that was it, you kind of just accepted Amir's measurements were correct.
• "the bad measurements were the result of the volume control" you claimed to have forgotten about the volume control chip, and you stated that it was the main limiting factor for the device's performance, and that it was a compromise you decided to accept due to other constraints in the design.
• "for a portable product it was good enough for them.", you have claimed multiple times that you don't want your device compared to desktop devices, because it's portable and it will never match desktop devices. That implies that you are fine with the performance because it's a portable device.

I would like to know which part I misunderstood.

 

[Nango]

In Science it is mandatory to move forward with every statement, the discussion "what did I say ..... I didn't say that" is not. He made his statement which is focussed on future developments, no matter we believe him or not or if we like their products or not it is senseless to debate him. We should herefrom move only fwd.

 

[Nango]

I am in touch with a brand new V1 at half the original price ..... Regarding the battery function and longevity, would it be wiseful to grab it @radioman ??.... any long term experiences with the battery reliability?? ....is it replaceable?

 

[radioman]

May I ask you, which part of my post is inaccurate?

I can break it down for you:

• "at the end CEntrance just acknowledged Amir's measurements were correct, that their measurements were measuring a different thing" for days (maybe weeks) you claimed that Amir's measurements didn't match your own, but you didn't post your own. When you posted something, you realized your measurements were measuring a different thing so they couldn't be compared to Amir's. And that was it, you kind of just accepted Amir's measurements were correct.
• "the bad measurements were the result of the volume control" you claimed to have forgotten about the volume control chip, and you stated that it was the main limiting factor for the device's performance, and that it was a compromise you decided to accept due to other constraints in the design.
• "for a portable product it was good enough for them.", you have claimed multiple times that you don't want your device compared to desktop devices, because it's portable and it will never match desktop devices. That implies that you are fine with the performance because it's a portable device.

I would like to know which part I misunderstood.

Thank you for your valuable comments.

Allow me to explain my position in a way that hopefully doesn't offend anyone:

- We spent plenty of time on this thread and learned a lot. Eventually life's little pressures have forced us to move on. It's simply not worth fighting over minutia. Could I prove that the noise is better? Yes, I probably can. Especially since it wasn't fully measured, as the test was cut short. Is that worth the continued engagement? I'm not so sure about that. Can I send another unit to Amir and plead for his forgiveness? I am not positive this will actually change anything. His position is clear. Numbers are everything and we got the headless ceramic figurine. As we explained, THD won't change but because of that the rest will be simply irrelevant. The panther won't grow another head. Time to move on?

- Have we learned Amir's standards? Of course! We have a very clear picture for what he considers a "passing grade" and moving forward we will make sure to satisfy that set of criteria, just to stay clear of the argument.

- We have lots of satisfied customers and our time is best spent attending to their needs. We treat our customers with respect and provide great service to them. Are there many of them on this thread? Probably not. They happen to favor other online communities where we engage more. Anything wrong with this community? Nothing wrong. It is unique and that is already valuable in itself.

- If you have any specific questions about our products, our design philosophy, etc, go ahead and ask. If you are simply hear to troll, (or it looks like you are) then please respect that we may not engage.

Hope this makes our position clear. Now, I got to go back to the bench, a lot of work to do!

 

[radioman]

I am in touch with a brand new V1 at half the original price ..... Regarding the battery function and longevity, would it be wiseful to grab it @radioman ??.... any long term experiences with the battery reliability?? ....is it replaceable?

Dude, that thing is like 7 years old. I recommend the V2, it's much better. Please reach out to discuss. Email me and we will help. CEntrance.com/contact

 

[ThesyconSucks]

Thank you for your valuable comments.


- If you have any specific questions about our products, our design philosophy, etc, go ahead and ask. If you are simply hear to troll, (or it looks like you are) then please respect that we may not engage.

Do the different outputs share the same DAC, or are they entirely separate?

Is it possible to use multiple outputs simultaneously?

 

[radioman]

Do the different outputs share the same DAC, or are they entirely separate?

Is it possible to use multiple outputs simultaneously?

- Same DAC section feeds all amps.
- It's possible to use all outputs simultaneously.

 

[fgfgfg]

@radioman what was the concern to use digital pot with quite awful THD ratio instead of digital volume control in AK4493 DAC (like you did in Dacport HD with 4490) ?

 

[ThesyconSucks]

@radioman what was the concern to use digital pot with quite awful THD ratio instead of digital volume control in AK4493 DAC (like you did in Dacport HD with 4490) ?

(He already answered this)

Channel Matching and Battery Life

 

[fgfgfg]

Channel Matching and Battery Life

It doesn't make sense at all, every single bit of your audio passed through DATT\Soft Mute module of DAC which in modern DACs is at least 32bit resolution and consume no additional energy since it is part of the DAC!

Spoiler: Pictures

 

[ThesyconSucks]

It doesn't make sense at all, every single bit of your audio passed through DATT\Soft Mute module of DAC which in modern DACs is at least 32bit resolution and consume no additional energy since it is part of the DAC!

I'm telling you what @radioman said was the reason, not defending the idea.

 

[MerlinGS]

On a lighter note, and I know there are a lot of very serious people here, who spend their time seriously listening to serious music -- we cannot wait until ASR starts measuring guitar amps. That might singlehandedly cancel rock-and-roll!

This is a very odd statement to make, and it is reminiscent of speaker/headphone designers who state their designs borrow from the works of the great masters who made the Stradivarius string instruments. Why would anyone want their speakers to tonally colour sound reproduction like a Stradivarius? Speakers serve a dramatically different purpose than stringed instruments. As you clearly know, guitar amps are an essential part of the guitar's sound; i.e. the amps have distortions the musicians crave when playing their instruments. That does not mean one would like to have the same distorting amps to poorly reproduce a recording in the studio listening room or at home. As I understand it, ASR is concerned with the study and perception of proper and accurate reproduction of an audio signal, whether digital or analog. Any analysis of guitar amps would begin by considering the auditory needs and expectations of electric guitar players (especially rock-and-roll players as you note), something totally unrelated to the pursuits of ASR (at least for the time being).

 

[jss]

Its always been a fascinating experience reading posts like this on this and other forums. People buy things (audio gears included) based on potentially a dynamic set of considerations, ranging from practical to even dogmatic. I have a strong sense that most (I really mean most if not all) who'd participated in commenting on / reacting to Amir's measurements (including he himself) did't / don't have what a call a "common ground of going in position" when it comes to evaluating a product (which by the way could be done from multiple perspective albeit measurement is always a crucial piece). But measurement in itself isn't the ultimate goal, as its always one subordinated to the product's intended design mandate. In the end its a competitive market, and if one can buy another product that can do the required product technology optimization better, performs better (in the eyes of customers), at a lower price point, the buying decision is a no brainer. That reminds me of the age old concept of the house of quality.

On a separate but somewhat related note, I kept seeing / hearing negative comments about the Cayin RU6, mainly on the measurement side, but my love on this unit grow everyday. Don't rush to classify me as a objectivist vs subjectivist, as I'm neither and dislike any such labelling. Call me instead a joy seeker (in the realm of audio and music) as this is my main driver of this hobby. FYI, I also have measured extremely well RME ADI2 Pro in my inventory, just to illustrate my previous point.

Happy listening and have a nice weekend to all ..

 

[Taddpole]

Someone likes to write a lot to say very little

 

[A Surfer]

Absolutely, sorry jss, I would have to ask what was the point that you were trying to make? Your post when analyzed really didn't say anything as far as I could tell.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Absolutely, sorry jss, I would have to ask what was the point that you were trying to make? Your post when analyzed really didn't say anything as far as I could tell.

I think you might be reading an output from Google Translate and something got lost in the translation.

I think what jss is saying is that people buy audio components for different reasons, but seldom based on measurements and more often based on products features.

 

[A Surfer]

I think you might be reading an output from Google Translate and something got lost in the translation.

I think what jss is saying is that people buy audio components for different reasons, but seldom based on measurements and more often based on products features.

Thanks, and yes I did know that, but what I meant is that such a post is completely devoid of anything other than stating the somewhat obvious; however, he or she is also making a pretty grand generalization. So really, nothing but the usual subjectivist fare whereby there is an attempt to make the validity of measurement seem rather trivial when any such position is absolutely poorly informed to say the least.

 

[NihilGuru]

It's been months (years?) Still no measurements from CEntrance. But the reality is that we idiots still haven't figured out the purpose of this device. But shouldn't it just play audio? What else is there to understand? If the measures kill it, it's because it's badly designed. Admitting your mistakes is more commendable than making excuses like "we had to give up a better sinad to get a low thd" when instead everyone is trying to do better in this millennium. bad design, them somewhere. not everything... something is saved. Pity! the dacport hd is a great device.