Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review

[preload]

Did you really just compare vented subs to a small sealed sub?

Shouldn't you be studying the log equation right now?

 

[Chromatischism]

Rythmik has 3 vented 12" subs...for crying out loud.

Anyway, it's been clear for a long time to me that as you go bigger, Rythmik subs become better deals. I don't claim that they have the best performance per dollar across the whole lineup, especially not against Outlaw and HSU. Often times I recommend HSU at the bargain level. The LV12F isn't bad at $599 but HSU pricing can't be beat for what they offer. But once you step into the mid-range Rythmik starts to pull away from the pack. Even into the high end they are very competitive and only cede to to specialists like JTR and Funk once you're into the multiple thousands $$$.

 

[richard12511]

Since we don't hear below 20, why would someone buy a relatively huge box to get lower extension?

You can hear a little below 20Hz if it's loud enough. The biggest reason you want sub 20Hz performance, though, is for the tactile impact. I can "turn off" my sub 20Hz with a Roon filter. I've done this many times to test, and it makes a surprising amount of music sound considerably worse. Music is both heard and felt, at least at high volumes. I used to own dual F113s(*F112), then I upgraded to dual Submersives, then to dual RS2s, then to 4 RS2s(then back down to dual RS2s ). Everyone of those upgrades was a noticeable jump in sound quality, mainly because of that sub 20Hz region.

And given the significant advantages of multiple subs, i cannot imagine anyone choosing one of the giant boxes over 2 boxes of manageable size,

*Raises hand* Do I qualify as "anyone" ?

Why is it 1 giant sub vs 2 smaller subs when the giant subs are cheaper and space is of no concern to me? My first 2 RS2s I got on sale for the price of 1 F113, and the second 2 were ~120% the price of one F113. Going by your logic of 1 big vs 2 small, ignoring sale prices, we'd be talking about a $12,600 system(4 x $3150) vs a $40,000 system (8 x $5000), and that doesn't seem fair . That said, the cheaper system may still win

There's also the advantage of an 18 band parametric equalizer with microphone included with the Fathoms.

I think if you're someone who doesn't have access to good EQ, then this is a huge plus. Bass always needs EQ, and EQed bass will almost always sound better than non-EQed bass, regardless of other differences. In my situation, however, it's kinda worthless. Even when I had it, I didn't use it, as I've always EQed via software(which has many more bands).

Am I missing something here?

I don't think you're missing anything, just different priorities. We're talking strictly price vs performance, and ignoring size. With those conditions, there are simply much better subs out there for the money. If you're looking for the best size/performance, JL Audio is going to be hard to beat, and you've likely made a good choice going with them. Haven't looked, but I'd bet that a 12" JL Audio outperforms a 12" Rythmik.

Personally, my priorities are different for my different systems. I live alone, so in my main room(open floor plan), I'm just going for the best sound I can get, size be damned. In my office, my RS2s simply wouldn't fit with the furniture in there, so I went with smaller Genelec subs(JL Audio probably would have been better), and they have no problem filling that tiny room.

 

[richard12511]

Good news, I found some CEA-2010 measurements for a 12" Rhythmik sub! The F12 is reported out in Brent Butterworth's database.

Butterworth reports CEA-2010 as peak values at 1m, Whereas Audioholics reports CEA-2010 as RMS at 2m. So the correction should be Butterworth -6dB (doubling distance) +-3dB (RMS/peak) = -9dB. Using this correction:

View attachment 107422

Ouch. I did this very quickly, so perhaps someone can double-check me (source + math). I'm happy to be corrected.

Edit: Corrected measurement distance for Butterworth/Audioholics (thanks @Sancus for catching this)

I'm a little confused what your point is here. All your showing is that the 12" JL outperforms the 12" Ryhmik. We're talking about price vs. performance. You should be comparing the E112($2100) against the G25HP($2350) or the FV18($1800) if you're trying to make your case.

JL are outstanding for the size(maybe the best)
JL are not top tier for the price

The latter is the point your trying to dispute, right?

 

[richard12511]

E: I bet the JL f113 is better(couldn't find measurements) than the E15HP, but it also costs $5000 which... really? WTF.

Indeed, which is why a more fair comparison would be the JTR Captivator 4000($4,200).

 

[richard12511]

Thanks for catching this, @Sancus, I corrected my prior posts to avoid confusion.


Ah, let me clarify. From a pure performance standpoint, we already knew that Rythmik's larger subs (15", 18", 25") are high performing, based on available CEA-2010 data. However, up until this point (at least in this thread), I noticed a paucity of data available for Rythmik's subs (i.e. 12"). I theorized that perhaps Rythmik's 12" and smaller subs weren't especially high performing compared to the competition, and that was why the manufacturer released only vague performance data (in the form of a 20Hz-only output comparison chart for its product line) and was not aggressive about sending the 12" models out for testing. I also questioned whether the servo design offered any particular advantage in this size range vs. other competitor non-servo subwoofers in the 12" or smaller range. Again, if Rythmik's 12" model lineup, each featuring their servo design, was superior to everything else out there, I would expect the CEA-2010 (or other THD vs. freq) data to be blasted everywhere. A number of Rythmik owners didn't like this idea of course.

However, hopefully this discussion is settled, now that it turns out, there are CEA-2010 data for a Rythmik 12" sub. Clearly, there are other 12" subwoofers, none of which featuring a servo, that outperform the Rythmik F12. Some of them, I might point out, are similar in price. For instance:
Hsu VTF-2 MK5 - $539
Outlaw Ultra-X12 - $679
SVS PB-2000 - $899 (and includes a BT app w/3-band PEQ)
So, I'm not even sure if I can agree that Rythmik's 12" subs, specifically, have the best price/performance!



And this was my original hypothesis - that, at least for the 12" or smaller range, perhaps the servo didn't confer significant advantages over non-servo models, particularly non-servo models that are optimized in other ways.

IMO, HSU may have Rythmik beat on the low end.

 

[preload]

I'm a little confused what your point is here.

My point is summarized in an earlier post.

All your showing is that the 12" JL outperforms the 12" Ryhmik. We're talking about price vs. performance.

Price vs performance was never my point. That was a consideration others brought up. In fact, I could care less about price. I'm mostly focused on performance at a given driver size. Obviously, an average 18" driver is going to outperform the very best 12", perhaps at lower price point.

 

[richard12511]

My point is summarized in an earlier post.



Price vs performance was never my point. That was a consideration others brought up. In fact, I could care less about price. I'm mostly focused on performance at a given driver size. Obviously, an average 18" driver is going to outperform the very best 12", perhaps at lower price point.

Yeah I read your post after I had already replied. Probably should have read the whole thread before replying.

 

[RichB]

I was looking at a JL F112 mostly because of the small footprint. I ended up with Custom Rythmik E22 dual12" subs in custom cabinet made by Salk sound for about 1/2 the price. They are 14" x 16.5 x 30 (W x D x H) in gloss black with mahogany sides. The two subs perform well down to 15Hz and cost less than the JLs.

The standard version from Rythmik costs $1500 in gloss black.

- Rich

 

[richard12511]

I was looking at a JL F112 mostly because of the small footprint. I ended up with Custom Rythmik E22 dual12" subs in custom cabinet made by Salk sound for about 1/2 the price. They are 14" x 16.5 x 30 (W x D x H) in gloss black with mahogany sides. The two subs perform well down to 15Hz and cost less than the JLs.
View attachment 107483


The standard version from Rythmik costs $1500 in gloss black.

- Rich

Is that a Salon2 next to it ?

 

[pozz]

For fun, did the same sort of comparison as before with Brent Butterworth's CEA 2010. Since he doesn't organize by the same parameters, I used driver area (simple π(r²), not effective radiating area) to sort manufacturers.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Indeed. Whatever happened to "If it's too loud, you're too old!"

That's with TV 2 inch speakers. Not 20 hz sound waves.

 

[Bear123]

I don't think Rythmik has the BEST price/performance, just better than JL. Your examples are all ported... of course you can build a cheaper, larger ported sub that beats the F12 on output. That is why you add ports to things

I don't know of anything similar-sized, sealed, and cheaper that beats it on output. I would be interested if such a thing exists, for sure!

Here is a comparison Power Sound Audio's smallest, cheapest sealed sub(which was $799 at the time). It uses a 15" driver vs the JL audio E112's 12" driver. Cab size isn't extraordinarily different with 2.7ft^3 for the JL and 3.5 for PSA. Similar size, sealed, cheaper. This version of the PSA has since had its driver significantly upgraded to the B&C 15 DS115, and a much more powerful amp. The performance disparity will currently be much larger than what is seen here:

I think the Rythmik E15HP2($1400ish) will likely outperform any single driver JL audio sub, and their G25HP($2400ish) will outperform their dual driver sub. Both are available with very high quality piano gloss finishes. Just reading through the comparisons and discussions. A lot of the performance of the E15HP2 can be extrapolated from the detailed measurement data of the FV15HP using the same driver and smaller amp.

JL are good subs. They aren't in the remote ballpark for price/performance of even similar size subs from PSA and Rythmik, or Hsu's ULS15MK2 for that matter. Hsu's ULS is similar size, cheaper, and outperforms.

 

[Sancus]

Here is a comparison Power Sound Audio's smallest, cheapest sealed sub(which was $799 at the time). It uses a 15" driver vs the JL audio E112's 12" driver. Cab size isn't extraordinarily different with 2.7ft^3 for the JL and 3.5 for PSA. Similar size, sealed, cheaper.

I was referring to the Rythmik F12, not the JL E112.

 

[Bear123]

I was referring to the Rythmik F12, not the JL E112.

Ah, so when you said you don’t know of anything that beats it that is smaller, cheaper and has more output, you meant the F12? Yeah, I think that would be tough to do within those constraints.

 

[RichB]

Is that a Salon2 next to it ?

I send Jim Salk a picture of a white piece of paper for him to match the Salon2 cabinets.
I wont go into pricing but these two subs are less than I could get dual JL F112 at a hefty discount.

For me, it was down to Rythmik or JL where JL has the best (smallest) footprint and better on-board PEQ.
Currently, I am using only phase adjustments and working on PEQ adjustments.

Here are the dual subwoofers without adjustments and just using the on-board phase delay.
I have been busy at work but will continue to work with REW to PEQ. There is good extension to 15hz and a peak at 40hz that should respond to PEQ.

Even without tuning dual subs have removed the localization that I found with the subwoofer.

- Rich

 

[3dbinCanada]

Thanks for catching this, @Sancus, I corrected my prior posts to avoid confusion.


Ah, let me clarify. From a pure performance standpoint, we already knew that Rythmik's larger subs (15", 18", 25") are high performing, based on available CEA-2010 data. However, up until this point (at least in this thread), I noticed a paucity of data available for Rythmik's subs (i.e. 12"). I theorized that perhaps Rythmik's 12" and smaller subs weren't especially high performing compared to the competition, and that was why the manufacturer released only vague performance data (in the form of a 20Hz-only output comparison chart for its product line) and was not aggressive about sending the 12" models out for testing. I also questioned whether the servo design offered any particular advantage in this size range vs. other competitor non-servo subwoofers in the 12" or smaller range. Again, if Rythmik's 12" model lineup, each featuring their servo design, was superior to everything else out there, I would expect the CEA-2010 (or other THD vs. freq) data to be blasted everywhere. A number of Rythmik owners didn't like this idea of course.

However, hopefully this discussion is settled, now that it turns out, there are CEA-2010 data for a Rythmik 12" sub. Clearly, there are other 12" subwoofers, none of which featuring a servo, that outperform the Rythmik F12. Some of them, I might point out, are similar in price. For instance:
Hsu VTF-2 MK5 - $539
Outlaw Ultra-X12 - $679
SVS PB-2000 - $899 (and includes a BT app w/3-band PEQ)
So, I'm not even sure if I can agree that Rythmik's 12" subs, specifically, have the best price/performance!



And this was my original hypothesis - that, at least for the 12" or smaller range, perhaps the servo didn't confer significant advantages over non-servo models, particularly non-servo models that are optimized in other ways.

Your original hypothesis remains speculative conjecture on your part because you dont have data to show what an F12 would behave like without the servo. Secondly between the 40 to 60 HZ range, SPL was off by 1.3 db at worst which is well within the pack. Once you start going deeper, the F12 starts to roll off and even a servo can't compensate for the roll-off of a sealed box like Chromatischism correctly pointed out. Maybe this where I tell you that you should stick to studying logs. Brought to you by your friendly Rythmik owners group.

 

[pozz]

Since we don't hear below 20, why would someone buy a relatively huge box to get lower extension?

A transition (like an anatomical crossover) starts around 50Hz and, the lower you go, the less dominant the ears become. The stomach in particular responds to pressure and sends sensations up through the vagus nerve. So you can "hear" well below 20Hz, but it requires massive SPL.

 

[ex audiophile]

A transition (like an anatomical crossover) starts around 50Hz and, the lower you go, the less dominant the ears become. The stomach in particular responds to pressure and sends sensations up through the vagus nerve. So you can "hear" well below 20Hz, but it requires massive SPL.

A "gut feeling" in other words

 

[SimpleTheater]

I'm taking the scientific approach. It's called hypothesis formation.

I formed my own hypothesis from Rythmik not sending in their 12" subs for testing. It would seem that they are so capable at reproducing bass that no one would every buy their 15" or 18" models ever again because the 12s are simply as capable as their bigger brothers. How would Rythmik sell the more expensive subs if the 12s do everything the others can at a lower price? This is Marketing 101, profits come first.