Anything better than Genelec?

[Pearljam5000]

To me, it's a quite smart move, as all of these speakers (Kii Three, D&D 8c, 8351/8361) will have obvious troubles playing loud at 20 Hz, which is a job to be left to subwoofers. So, tuning it to get more output is better than fighting pointlessly against the laws of physics, in my opinion.

So if you add a sub to the 8351/8361 it will sound as good as the Kii Three and 8C ans will have as much bass?

 

[Sancus]

So if you add a sub to the 8351/8361 it will sound as good as the Kii Three and 8C ans will have as much bass?

Depends. If you add a decent sub it will have MORE bass than the Kii/8C for sure, but because of low-frequency directivity control, 8C/K3 may be somewhat more independent from the room at 100-500hz. You CAN get directivity control down to about 250hz with long-side-down rotation of the Ones. Also, of course W371A which is designed for that purpose and might in fact do it best because of the large distance separating its drivers. It would be almost impossible to say which would be better in any given room without testing it, and in any case I doubt any differences would be night and day.

Honestly, these speakers have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and nothing short of a real double blind test can objectively "prove" which high-end studio monitor is the best. Even such a test would probably not be conclusive for some

 

[Pearljam5000]

Depends. If you add a decent sub it will have MORE bass than the Kii/8C for sure, but because of low-frequency directivity control, 8C/K3 may be somewhat more independent from the room at 100-500hz. You CAN get directivity control down to about 250hz with long-side-down rotation of the Ones. Also, of course W371A which is designed for that purpose and might in fact do it best because of the large distance separating its drivers. It would be almost impossible to say which would be better in any given room without testing it, and in any case I doubt any differences would be night and day.

Honestly, these speakers have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and nothing short of a real double blind test can objectively "prove" which high-end studio monitor is the best. Even such a test would probably not be conclusive for some

Im going to suggest Genelec to add another 2 woofers to each monitor like kii and 8c

 

[Purité Audio]

Really there are many fine loudspeakers out there, it would depend upon your taste and which works best in your room and that is where the 8C/Kii cardioid types have a small advantage imho.
Keith

 

[Masza]

I've owned a pair of 8340s and they rocked. But IMO the real (GLM) bang for buck is 1032C. I just hope I had a better listening space i.e. acoustics.

 

[Sprint]

I've owned a pair of 8340s and they rocked. But IMO the real (GLM) bang for buck is 1032C. I just hope I had a better listening space i.e. acoustics.

Absolutely agree. 1032c touches midfield. If it had protective grills with white color, i too would have opted for it instead of 8340. now that i have 8340,it rocks and i do not miss 1032 anymore

 

[Pearljam5000]

I've owned a pair of 8340s and they rocked. But IMO the real (GLM) bang for buck is 1032C. I just hope I had a better listening space i.e. acoustics.

The real question is, is the 1032 better than 8350 because they're more comparable
Also doesn't it have older drivers than the 8000 series, and also doesn't the boxy Cabinet impacts the sound vs the smooth round metal cabinet of the 8000 series

 

[LTig]

The 8340s are around £900, and don't require the sub for the GLM. What benefit would the KH310 bring over those pair of Genelecs?
(Aside from the lower frequency response)

• Less IMD in the mids due to being 3-ways.
• Higher SPL.
• Very clean bass due to being sealed (no port chuffing and resonances).

You get what you pay for.

 

[dfuller]

To me, it's a quite smart move, as all of these speakers (Kii Three, D&D 8c, 8351/8361) will have obvious troubles playing loud at 20 Hz, which is a job to be left to subwoofers. So, tuning it to get more output is better than fighting pointlessly against the laws of physics, in my opinion.

Without a doubt, I agree on this one. Even speakers that do extend low often behave better if they're crossed over with a sub at some level - A mastering engineer friend of mine uses Barefoot Footprint01s (which, if the in-house graphs are to be believed, are down -3dB at 36Hz and have 500 watts of amp just for the low drivers), but crosses them over with Rhythmik F12s at 45/55 hz (different per-side for acoustics reasons). Apparently it dropped distortion considerably.

The real question is, is the 1032 better than 8350 because they're more comparable
Also doesn't it have older drivers than the 8000 series, and also doesn't the boxy Cabinet impacts the sound vs the smooth round metal cabinet of the 8000 series

That I couldn't tell you - but, the 1032C (the most up to date version, currently in production) has about 10 liters greater internal cabinet volume (~45.9 vs ~35.9), is heavier (~38 pounds vs ~28 pounds) and the cabinet is MDF instead of aluminum, so that may factor in as well. It has a touch more power for the low driver (250w vs 200w) but unless you're listening really loud I doubt that will affect much of anything. Edge diffraction probably also factors in some, but... Couldn't tell you how much.

 

[hardisj]

Speaking of which, it has been 3 weeks since Erin posted his Before the Review of D&D 8c video and he still hasn't reviewed it...

From my post about getting the NFS:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../erins-audio-corner-gets-a-klippel-nfs.19445/

The DD8c rolled in around mid-October. The following week I reached out to Klippel to discuss the purchase of the NFS. I had been hoping the NFS would have been here months ago. But with Covid causing them to be short staffed along with the holidays, it took some time for everything to get worked out and for them to get back shipping products. Thus, the delay.

I really wanted to wait for the NFS to measure the DD8c. I did not want to use my standard measurement method for them for two main reasons: 1) blocking the side vents was going to present a challenge and potentially result in me not providing complete vertical spins and 2) it’s an expensive speaker and I didn’t fancy the idea of touching it about 150-something different times to rotate it, move it, set it up, etc.


TL;DR:
It’s coming as soon as I can get to it. I’m as eager as anyone to provide that data. More eager, in fact.

 

[Masza]

That I couldn't tell you - but, the 1032C (the most up to date version, currently in production) has about 10 liters greater internal cabinet volume (~45.9 vs ~35.9), is heavier (~38 pounds vs ~28 pounds) and the cabinet is MDF instead of aluminum, so that may factor in as well. It has a touch more power for the low driver (250w vs 200w) but unless you're listening really loud I doubt that will affect much of anything. Edge diffraction probably also factors in some, but... Couldn't tell you how much.

1032C also has 10" bass-midrange compared to 8" of 8350. I think the small price difference is due to MDF cabinet being cheaper to manufacture than that aluminium one of 8350.

I considered between 8350 and 1032C when upgrading from 8340.

 

[FeddyLost]

So if you add a sub to the 8351/8361 it will sound as good as the Kii Three and 8C ans will have as much bass?

It will depend on a lot of variables, but there are almost no monitors regardless of price that have i.e. sealed servo LF. I think, only Bakes & Mueller/KS Digital have this, and their LF drivers are not 12+ inch sized.
For example, Bob Katz uses 2 top JL Audio subs with Dynaudio M5P, so adding the sub(s) is not just about extending measurable -3Db point.
Also, if you tune really good sub(s) and room "flat" with correct RT, you might find out that bass is deficient and you'll have to re-tune your earbrain to "new norm". But if you're just consumer, all is much easier.

 

[Joaquinín]

As far as I understand, there isn't really any research showing that phase linearity is particularly audible, let alone important. see: various statements.



There are no phase measurements of the 8351B available that I know of, and the 8351A is a different speaker.

That said, here are phase measurements of the 8351A, 8361A(same tweeter/mid/amplifier as the 8351B, only the woofer is changed), and KH420. It does not seem to me that the 8361A/8351B do poorly on this measurement, regardless of its importance.

E: Additionally, IMD of the 8350 (vs 8361A) seems far worse in the midrange, as expected from a 2-way, and certainly I would be worried about that long before I look at phase.

If the Ones are not linear phase as we see at those measurements: Is the following a piece of misinformation, or some mistake? (here: https://www.genelec.com/-/the-ones-step-closer-to-perfection)
"Digital signal processing is also used to align all frequencies, so that all drivers are working in complete synchronisation across the entire frequency range. This is called a ‘constant delay system’ or ‘linear phase system’, whichever term you prefer. Right down to bass frequencies, the delay of The One remains constant, and hence the acoustic waveforms retain their shapes at the acoustic output. Even if science tells us that any variation in delay is not very audible unless the variation is large, this feature makes it easier to use different sizes of The Ones monitors in the same playback system, and also improves the creation of the virtual sound images that I described earlier. "

 

[Sancus]

If the Ones are not linear phase as we see at those measurements: Is the following a piece of misinformation, or some mistake? (here: https://www.genelec.com/-/the-ones-step-closer-to-perfection)
"Digital signal processing is also used to align all frequencies, so that all drivers are working in complete synchronisation across the entire frequency range. This is called a ‘constant delay system’ or ‘linear phase system’, whichever term you prefer. Right down to bass frequencies, the delay of The One remains constant, and hence the acoustic waveforms retain their shapes at the acoustic output. Even if science tells us that any variation in delay is not very audible unless the variation is large, this feature makes it easier to use different sizes of The Ones monitors in the same playback system, and also improves the creation of the virtual sound images that I described earlier. "

I am pretty sure the way "Linear Phase" is used in all speaker marketing materials is mostly nonsense. Strictly speaking, I don't think it is even possible to offer linear phase down to low bass frequencies without introducing a huge amount of latency, which is unacceptable for too many use cases.

The 8361A(and the other newer Ones: the 8351A was an earlier model not representative of current performance) seem to have relatively linear phase down to 500hz unless I am misreading.

Here is a graph of a speaker that promises "linear phase" and introduces massive latency(90ms) to accomplish it:

 

[q3cpma]

If the Ones are not linear phase as we see at those measurements: Is the following a piece of misinformation, or some mistake? (here: https://www.genelec.com/-/the-ones-step-closer-to-perfection)
"Digital signal processing is also used to align all frequencies, so that all drivers are working in complete synchronisation across the entire frequency range. This is called a ‘constant delay system’ or ‘linear phase system’, whichever term you prefer. Right down to bass frequencies, the delay of The One remains constant, and hence the acoustic waveforms retain their shapes at the acoustic output. Even if science tells us that any variation in delay is not very audible unless the variation is large, this feature makes it easier to use different sizes of The Ones monitors in the same playback system, and also improves the creation of the virtual sound images that I described earlier. "

Sound&Recording shows the newer Ones (8361A and 8331A) as phase linear starting from 1 kHz, the 8350A from 300 Hz and the S360 from 100 Hz.

 

[nai]

Even without counting the advantages of the point source, 8361+w371 can automatically take care of the most difficult acoustic problems below 300hz, which no one can do yet, including kii and 8c

 

[Deleted member 4708]

ME Geithain are supposed to be better - at least according to Stereoplay magazine. 801 are cheaper than Genelec 8361+w371. The 901 ME Geithain is cheaper than Genelec 8361 and has cardioid bass.

 

[LTig]

ME Geithain are supposed to be better - at least according to Stereoplay magazine. 801 / 901 are cheaper than Genelec 8361+w371.

I wouldn't give any 2 cents on what Stereoplay writes.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I wouldn't give any 2 cents on what Stereoplay writes.

How about their measurements? Is that worth anything?
https://www.me-geithain.de/en/rl-801k-11.html
Note how distortion is measured at 100db! That is truly loud. I am yet to see Genelec 8351B or 8361A at 100db. Do they look as good?

 

[Sancus]

ME Geithain are supposed to be better - at least according to Stereoplay magazine. 801 are cheaper than Genelec 8361+w371. The 901 ME Geithain is cheaper than Genelec 8361 and has cardioid bass.

Stereoplay's measurements have always looked very smoothed/low resolution to me. Nothing like Klippel or even S&R measurements, quality-wise.

In any case, MEG is unbuyable and unsupported in most of the world as far as I know, so it's not really an option for most people. Given they have speakers that are competitive with Neumann and Genelec, and that they like to make money, you would think they would try to improve distribution.