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Dan D’Agostino on measurements

RikB

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Has anyone created a high end amplifier where they aim for it to initially measure as perfectly as possible but then provide the user with sound shaping options that can be bypassed or enabled, i.e. adding dsp modelling to emulate various distortions etc so users could modify according to taste? If implemented well, that could provide the best of both worlds and be flexible to individual tastes.
 

SIY

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Has anyone created a high end amplifier where they aim for it to initially measure as perfectly as possible but then provide the user with sound shaping options that can be bypassed or enabled, i.e. adding dsp modelling to emulate various distortions etc so users could modify according to taste? If implemented well, that could provide the best of both worlds and be flexible to individual tastes.
Far easier to do that at the source.
 

Frank Dernie

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Has anyone created a high end amplifier where they aim for it to initially measure as perfectly as possible but then provide the user with sound shaping options that can be bypassed or enabled, i.e. adding dsp modelling to emulate various distortions etc so users could modify according to taste? If implemented well, that could provide the best of both worlds and be flexible to individual tastes.
You can get plug-ins to add the flavour of various other pieces of kit, always assuming a good transfer function has been measured and the processor is powerful enough to run its inverse in real time.
I have the Metric Halo set, really aimed at recording engineers to add colour to their recordings, and played a bit with them some years ago.
It was just a matter of interest but, since my objective was Hi-Fi I haven't used any for listening to my recordings.
I suppose if your main music source is file based it would be practical to route all your recordings through your selection if you wanted.
 

RikB

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You can get plug-ins to add the flavour of various other pieces of kit, always assuming a good transfer function has been measured and the processor is powerful enough to run its inverse in real time.
I have the Metric Halo set, really aimed at recording engineers to add colour to their recordings, and played a bit with them some years ago.
It was just a matter of interest but, since my objective was Hi-Fi I haven't used any for listening to my recordings.
I suppose if your main music source is file based it would be practical to route all your recordings through your selection if you wanted.
Yes, I'm familiar with VSTs etc (I make music) and it would work if the computer is the source but you'd need to route everything through the computer first if using a CD player/phone etc as the source. I also don't know of any plug ins that are designed to specifically to then emulate a pre amp or amp (e.g. distortion signatures) for Hi Fi purposes (as opposed to musical purposes of which there are many).
 

pma

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Has anyone created a high end amplifier where they aim for it to initially measure as perfectly as possible but then provide the user with sound shaping options that can be bypassed or enabled, i.e. adding dsp modelling to emulate various distortions etc so users could modify according to taste? If implemented well, that could provide the best of both worlds and be flexible to individual tastes.

Integrated amplifiers from "classic" era, with bass and treble controls, loudness circuit, all might be switched off and bypassed by activating "DIRECT" switch ;)
 

noobie1

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Has anyone created a high end amplifier where they aim for it to initially measure as perfectly as possible but then provide the user with sound shaping options that can be bypassed or enabled, i.e. adding dsp modelling to emulate various distortions etc so users could modify according to taste? If implemented well, that could provide the best of both worlds and be flexible to individual tastes.

Have you looked at true digital amplifiers? I think Amir reviewed the Lyngdorf TDAI 3400(?). The unit has built PEQ as well as a preset of 32 EQ voicings. It also has built in room correction.

I'm waiting for E1DA to release their HiFiToy.
 

RikB

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Have you looked at true digital amplifiers? I think Amir reviewed the Lyngdorf TDAI 3400(?). The unit has built PEQ as well as a preset of 32 EQ voicings. It also has built in room correction.

I'm waiting for E1DA to release their HiFiToy.
No, I'm not in the market for a high end one myself. I just think that something additional like classic amp emulations would help high end manufacturers justify their high prices.
 

b1daly

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At this point the default position should be that all competently design amps sound the 'same' in that they are indistinguishable in blind listening. If they are distinguishable the cause is most like slight frequency response variation, which is not that interesting if it is minor. Amps that can be distinguished based on distortion are a little disturbing as distortion has to be pretty high to be heard.

Anyone claiming they can perceive a sound signature in an amp is almost certainly being deceived by how hearing works.

From comments here I sometimes get the feeling that many people think amps or DACs sound better because they know it has excellent measurements, which is an ironic inversion of the traditional "objectivist" point of view.

For anyone doubting that carefully setup, blind AB test is required to test whether audio gear sounds different should try one. Pick two pieces of gear, one you think sounds better. Figure out a way to switch them that isn't too painful and have a friend switch for you.

It doesn't matter that you know you are subject to perceptual bias, you still can't overcome it. It is very powerful.

With speakers I assume that cognitive bias plays a very big part of sighted preferences, but generally speakers have an audible difference in sound. The closer you get to level matched blind test, the harder it is to distinguish if they have similar frequency responses.
 

RikB

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At this point the default position should be that all competently design amps sound the 'same' in that they are indistinguishable in blind listening. If they are distinguishable the cause is most like slight frequency response variation, which is not that interesting if it is minor. Amps that can be distinguished based on distortion are a little disturbing as distortion has to be pretty high to be heard.

Anyone claiming they can perceive a sound signature in an amp is almost certainly being deceived by how hearing works.

From comments here I sometimes get the feeling that many people think amps or DACs sound better because they know it has excellent measurements, which is an ironic inversion of the traditional "objectivist" point of view.

For anyone doubting that carefully setup, blind AB test is required to test whether audio gear sounds different should try one. Pick two pieces of gear, one you think sounds better. Figure out a way to switch them that isn't too painful and have a friend switch for you.

It doesn't matter that you know you are subject to perceptual bias, you still can't overcome it. It is very powerful.

With speakers I assume that cognitive bias plays a very big part of sighted preferences, but generally speakers have an audible difference in sound. The closer you get to level matched blind test, the harder it is to distinguish if they have similar frequency responses.
I know, that and you know that for amps, but manufacturers could at least then have an excuse to charge exorbitant prices if they have some way of differentiating their products other than with nice cases.
 

andreasmaaan

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Yes, I'm familiar with VSTs etc (I make music) and it would work if the computer is the source but you'd need to route everything through the computer first if using a CD player/phone etc as the source.

A preamp (with both digital and analogue inputs) would be a sensible place for such a device to sit in the signal chain.

I also don't know of any plug ins that are designed to specifically to then emulate a pre amp or amp (e.g. distortion signatures) for Hi Fi purposes (as opposed to musical purposes of which there are many).

I'm not sure I understand what the difference would be?
 

RikB

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A preamp (with both digital and analogue inputs) would be a sensible place for such a device to sit in the signal chain.



I'm not sure I understand what the difference would be?
For musical purposes it is to colour the sound for music production Eg certain preamps are favoured by producers for recording vocals. For Hi Fi purposes it would be to listen to emulated amps. I'll stop here as I have no intention of buying one if it gets produced and there would be little/no sonic difference anyway, but that's sort of the point. It would keep the big spenders happy to play with the emulation settings.
 

sergeauckland

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For musical purposes it is to colour the sound for music production Eg certain preamps are favoured by producers for recording vocals. For Hi Fi purposes it would be to listen to emulated amps. I'll stop here as I have no intention of buying one if it gets produced and there would be little/no sonic difference anyway, but that's sort of the point. It would keep the big spenders happy to play with the emulation settings.

I wonder how much of this is a myth. I wonder whether these producers have ever evaluated the equipment under blind, level-matched conditions.

As someone who's been around Pro equipment all my working life, all the measurements I've seen or done myself indicate that things like mike amps are transparent, so wonder where this 'favour' come from other than the same place that Audiophiles' preferences come from.

I'm excluding specific effects processors as those are clearly intended to change the sound, and I can fully understand how some producers prefer one processor over another, whether for the sound created, or for ergonomics or both, but for items that are meant to be transparent, like mic amps, they generally are.

S.
 

RikB

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I wonder how much of this is a myth. I wonder whether these producers have ever evaluated the equipment under blind, level-matched conditions.

As someone who's been around Pro equipment all my working life, all the measurements I've seen or done myself indicate that things like mike amps are transparent, so wonder where this 'favour' come from other than the same place that Audiophiles' preferences come from.

I'm excluding specific effects processors as those are clearly intended to change the sound, and I can fully understand how some producers prefer one processor over another, whether for the sound created, or for ergonomics or both, but for items that are meant to be transparent, like mic amps, they generally are.

S.
I have some Arturia preamp emulations (I've never owned hardware preamps outside of my soundcard) but have never compared them and don't feel the need to (I don't bother using them!). Most of it is probably myth
 

andreasmaaan

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For musical purposes it is to colour the sound for music production Eg certain preamps are favoured by producers for recording vocals. For Hi Fi purposes it would be to listen to emulated amps. I'll stop here as I have no intention of buying one if it gets produced and there would be little/no sonic difference anyway, but that's sort of the point. It would keep the big spenders happy to play with the emulation settings.

I see. I had thought of it in terms of emulating not so much specific amps but rather specific types of gear (similar to what Ozone Exciter does, if you're familiar with it?). But yes, emulating specific (fetishised) amps would be another way to do it.

In terms of keeping the big spenders happy, that I'm less sure of ;) Even if you could technically demonstrate a very high correlation between the transfer function of the filter and the original amp it's supposed to be emulating, I don't think big-spending audiophiles would accept that there wasn't some (amorphous) shortcoming. In the end, these devices are sought-after at least as much as a result of being fetishised as for how they actually sound. DSP emulation would only address only the former...
 

sergeauckland

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I see. I had thought of it in terms of emulating not so much specific amps but rather specific types of gear (similar to what Ozone Exciter does, if you're familiar with it?). But yes, emulating specific (fetishised) amps would be another way to do it.

In terms of keeping the big spenders happy, that I'm less sure of ;) Even if you could technically demonstrate a very high correlation between the transfer function of the filter and the original amp it's supposed to be emulating, I don't think big-spending audiophiles would accept that there wasn't some (amorphous) shortcoming. In the end, these devices are sought-after at least as much as a result of being fetishised as for how they actually sound. DSP emulation would only address only the former...
Especially when so many of these 'fetishised' amplifiers are transparent anyway, so there's nothing to emulate!

S.
 

SIY

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Especially when so many of these 'fetishised' amplifiers are transparent anyway, so there's nothing to emulate!

S.
Where there’s differences, it’s generally frequency response from the output impedance interaction with the load. Easy to emulate BUT will differ from speaker to speaker.
 

dep14

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Since then I have compiled the amplifier SINAD list below. Interesting how even the best Krell were not competitive to modern class D (and AHB2) amplifiers. So with Dan D'Agostino solo company he must have thought "if you can't compete on this front, just let go". Now his current amps are on the bottom of the list....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlTOYxmPs938gqHjtDABkWS-MApu7uJjzIGnJ2Elm6Y/edit?usp=sharing

Interesting to see them all like this.

I was surprised to see a couple McIntosh amps that measured as well as they did. People talk so much crap about how they sound soft, beyond the meters they are blah... but yet here we are with a couple measuring pretty darn well. I have to wonder again if it is a perception of how they should sound that blur's reviews.

But given the pretty widely held perception on how McIntosh sounds, this was interesting to me. The 462 is a relatively new design, and the 501 while not ancient, is slightly older.
 

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Right after college I worked for good audio dealer. We carried McIntosh, Tandberg, Audio Research, Luxman, Yamaha, B&O, ESS, IMF, Thorens, Revox, HK, etc. This was about 1973 - 1976. Even back then everyone I worked with believed that unless you were clipping an amp or it was having some other issue, if levels were matched you couldn't tell them apart worth two cents. Amps were judged more on reliability than anything else. And you had to match the speaker requirements for power so as to avoid blowing tweeters or other driver's due to amps clipping and pumping out garbage. Most all blown speakers the shop got in were due to precisely this issue. Different sounds? Not so much.
 

Frank Dernie

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Right after college I worked for good audio dealer. We carried McIntosh, Tandberg, Audio Research, Luxman, Yamaha, B&O, ESS, IMF, Thorens, Revox, HK, etc. This was about 1973 - 1976
I am sure back then we all felt that way.
Then a few journalists started going on about measurements not being important and listening was what counted.
IMO that lead to a huge cost saving for magazines and an opening up of the hobby to reviews not requiring expensive test equipment or highly knowledgeable reviewers, and everybody has ears so the whole subjective approach got legs.
 

Ken1951

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I am sure back then we all felt that way.
Then a few journalists started going on about measurements not being important and listening was what counted.
IMO that lead to a huge cost saving for magazines and an opening up of the hobby to reviews not requiring expensive test equipment or highly knowledgeable reviewers, and everybody has ears so the whole subjective approach got legs.
Yep, I was working there when Absolute Sound first came out. We would wait for an issue and it got passed around the stores. About the only good that came out of that was more Double Advents and more trying the ADC XLM. Other than that, it was more laughing than anything else. We had a good service department and we would all check it out when they had something cool on the test bench. I would have a tech set up my TT on a scope by paying him with beer!
 
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